Evidence of meeting #40 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transport.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:50 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
So you haven't had any discussions about what has transpired most recently in Canada?
3:50 p.m.
Coordinator, Flight Safety and Human Factors, International Civil Aviation Organization
3:50 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
Okay. I want to come to the report that ICAO finalized in January 2006. My colleagues have referred to it. Two elements came out of that. One was an observation:
Transport Canada's enforcement programme complies with Article 12 of the Chicago Convention by ensuring that every aircraft complies with the regulations and by providing for the prosecution of persons violating the regulations.
We have a bill before us that essentially takes away that element of prosecution of persons violating the regulation. Would that be a matter of some concern for ICAO, since it's very clearly stated in the audit done in 2005 that it is one of the advantages of the system that we currently have, or had at that time?
3:50 p.m.
Coordinator, Flight Safety and Human Factors, International Civil Aviation Organization
I believe that's probably one of the most sensitive and contentious issues within the entire SMS concept. SMS systems, gentlemen, are data-intensive. It's essentially replacing opinions with data, so we have to acquire the data.
Nobody--nobody--knows better how a system really works, and I underline the word “really”, than the people who operate the system: the pilots, air traffic controllers, mechanics, cabin crew, and ground personnel. If you want to know how your system works beyond regulations, beyond what the book says, you've got to ask these individuals.
If we need data, who is in the best position to provide this data? I believe the reply is so obvious--operational personnel--but if we are asking people to report on what they see, to report on flaws in the system that are there and were not anticipated when the system was designed, if we're telling these people to come forward with this vital safety management information, we cannot expect them to do it if the only reward they are going to receive is punishment.
3:55 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
But the ICAO report was very specific in saying that providing for prosecution of persons violating the regulations is an important component.
I'd like to turn to another component that is specifically mentioned. My colleagues mentioned it as well. It is the national audit program. The continuous airworthiness surveillance of commercial aircraft is performed through the national audit program, ramp checks, and the inspector assigned to the air operator. This was specifically mentioned in the audit undertaken in 2005, and as my colleagues have mentioned, in March 2006 the national audit program was essentially killed.
Is that a matter of concern? We have, again, a specific recommendation, a specific observation of the existing air safety system that subsequently has been abandoned or gutted. Is that not a source of concern, given the ICAO audit of Canadian airline and air safety operations?
3:55 p.m.
Coordinator, Flight Safety and Human Factors, International Civil Aviation Organization
I'm not quite sure it's a matter of concern, sir. If you have a system of checks and balances, the audit is one more component of that system, but not the only one.
I would like to stress the fact that when we say.... The question of errors and violations is fundamental here. Unless we understand that and deploy the appropriate measures to ensure that a balanced perspective is achieved, we're not going to go anywhere with safety management systems. We need to protect our sources of safety data, and I don't mean that we should create a special kind of workforce or citizens above the law; all I'm saying is that if we want to have access to certain specific safety data, we need to deploy the necessary mechanisms to ensure we have access to that data.
3:55 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
There is a contradiction between what ICAO has said in its audit and the measures that have been taken, the national audit program, and in October 2006, where all the enforcement investigations on safety violations in place, if there was an SMS in place, were abruptly abandoned. There again, very clearly, in the audit that was undertaken, there is concern implicitly, because what is very explicit is that those are extremely important components. Having that national audit program and having the enforcement components are extremely important elements of our existing safety system.
I'll move on, then, to the next issue, which is the number of inspectors. We have data that clearly shows that the number of civil aviation inspectors has gone down, and we've had previous witnesses who have testified to that as well. In fact, within the next few years we will see a serious shortage in the number of civil aviation inspectors because of retirement. The number has gone down, and through attrition we're going to lose even more. Could that not be a source of concern to ICAO, given the report that we would have fewer inspectors in place and the functions they had seemingly have been abandoned or gutted?
3:55 p.m.
Coordinator, Flight Safety and Human Factors, International Civil Aviation Organization
There are two questions there.
First of all, going back to the question of enforcement, if you were to tell me that Transport Canada or the Canadian government is considering totally discarding enforcement, my comment would be that it's a very bold measure. I'm not sure I would agree with that. If you're telling me that Transport Canada is considering somehow changing or adopting its enforcement policies to reflect a more contemporary approach to enforcement underlying SMS, that's a completely different matter. They are not the same, as I'm sure you realize.
Secondly, you might have a million inspectors and be absolutely ineffective, and you might have 100 inspectors and be absolutely effective. So I couldn't comment on numbers. To me, the safety performance of the system should be the parameter, not the number of people manning the system.
March 21st, 2007 / 4 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I thank the witness for being forthright and for that very useful information. I think Mr. Julian has been trying to draw you into a conclusion that you cannot make on the facts, and I've noted that you've resisted doing that. You've already stated that you haven't been briefed by Transport Canada staff on this. Have you had a chance to look at Bill C-6?
4 p.m.
Coordinator, Flight Safety and Human Factors, International Civil Aviation Organization
Yes, sir.
4 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
So you know that proposed section 5.39 does address the issue of ongoing audits within a new safety management framework.
There's also a suggestion by another member of this committee that somehow inspections are going to disappear as a result of this bill. I don't read that in the bill. I've spoken to Transport Canada staff and I've spoken to the parliamentary secretary. I don't see any evidence of that actually being the intention.
You've had a chance to view the act. Does the act suggest that SMS would be applied and implemented in a way that ongoing inspection and audit functions would still be performed?
4 p.m.
Coordinator, Flight Safety and Human Factors, International Civil Aviation Organization
As a technical person, as a safety practitioner, it is extremely difficult for me to read the details of the legal word. I have to admit that although I did look at the act, I didn't read it in any detail. On the surface, at face value, I don't read anything in the act that indicates to me that audits are going to disappear. If it's there, I have not been able to identify it, sir.
4 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
That's my understanding as well, and I've read the act through several times to try to understand this issue.
I'd like to go back to the audit that was recently performed by ICAO. Is it safe to conclude that Canada has one of the safest aviation systems in the world?
4 p.m.
Coordinator, Flight Safety and Human Factors, International Civil Aviation Organization
To me it is, but not because of the audit. It's because of my knowledge of the Canadian aviation system. The audit means, to a large extent, maybe, ticking boxes. Who knows?
4 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
What did the audit disclose in terms of results? There was significant compliance with ICAO standards. Is that not correct?
4 p.m.
Coordinator, Flight Safety and Human Factors, International Civil Aviation Organization
I am not familiar with the results of the audit. I cannot comment on the audit report itself because I have never seen it.
4 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
Do you sense that this federal government's attempt to introduce Bill C-6 and formalize the use of safety management systems within Canada's aviation industry is a significant step forward in ensuring ongoing safety within the industry?
4 p.m.
Coordinator, Flight Safety and Human Factors, International Civil Aviation Organization
I wouldn't know about this particular government, sir, but I do assure you that any attempt to introduce safety management systems in aviation is a significant step forward in terms of safety.
4 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
You mentioned that Canada is a leader, it's at the leading edge. Could you expand on that?
4 p.m.
Coordinator, Flight Safety and Human Factors, International Civil Aviation Organization
Yes, sir.
There is no other civil aviation administration among the 190 contracting states to ICAO that has progressed implementation of the concept of safety management systems to the extent that Transport Canada has progressed it.
I know there is a perception that the Australians, the New Zealanders, and the British have not gone beyond the production of a couple of manuals and some guidance material. There's nothing in their regulatory systems that somehow conveys the notion that they are going to react like the other 189 contracting states to the ICAO SMS requirement in annexes 6, 11, and 14. Canada is the only civil aviation administration that was ahead of the game before ICAO produced these requirements.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
So you're suggesting that Canada is actually a role model in the world in terms of aviation safety and now moving toward SMS implementation.
4:05 p.m.
Coordinator, Flight Safety and Human Factors, International Civil Aviation Organization
Yes, sir, that's what I'm saying.
4:05 p.m.
Coordinator, Flight Safety and Human Factors, International Civil Aviation Organization
Yes, sir.
