Transport Committee on April 16th, 2007

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Mr. Rhodes, you and your colleagues showed great courage that day, June 29, and you're showing real courage by coming forward today to provide your testimony before this committee. We're very concerned about the issue of rail safety and the escalating derailment rate.

You mentioned in your presentation how things have changed. You've been involved in railways for almost four decades in a variety of ways and worked your way up through the system. You talked about safety being job one a few years ago, and that safety isn't a priority now. When did things start to change? And has SMS, the safety management system, played a role in things changing in railways?

[Gordon Rhodes]

I think there's been a definite downgrade in safety since about 1989.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

And it's been a steady deterioration?

[Gordon Rhodes]

It's been subtle, and I believe it's reached a threshold. I believe that the accidents in British Columbia are a warning, because as I said before, the standards in British Columbia provincially were higher than they were federally, so it's where it's happening first. But if everything maintains the way it's going, where the bottom line is all there is, we're going to all be bottoming out. The accident that happened close to Toronto could have been a catastrophe if it had been a few more miles farther.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Do you think SMS has played a role as part of that, that in a sense it's downgraded safety standards?

[Gordon Rhodes]

Personally, I think there's a lack of proper enforcement going on. I think that Transport Canada has dropped the ball. And I'm not pointing fingers at individuals; it's the system. I think it hasn't been set up properly to safeguard. As I was saying before about supervisors not having any accountability, true accountability, that needs to be in place. I think this bonus system that companies have, where it's all about bottom line, needs to be changed to where maybe they should attach safety in there to their bonus so that the bottom-line people aren't just focusing on.... You see, the thing is that in B.C. I believe there are only four inspectors for the whole province. How hard is it to figure out where they are in any one day? Pick up the phone, so you know what I can do here.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

W-FIVE did an excellent report, which you were featured on, about railway safety and the escalating derailment rate. Do you believe that it will go higher?

[Gordon Rhodes]

It's not going to stop. They are doing some things better. There definitely are improvements out there, but the overall resistance is amazing.

When the government put out an order telling the company to put dynamic braking on all their units going down the mountain, they appealed it right away. What was that?

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

A Transport Canada report referred to the disconnect between senior management and front-line supervisors. It referenced the view of many employees and some front-line supervisors that they feel pressured—productivity, workload, and fear of discipline—to get the job done, which could compromise safe railway operations.

Are you confirming that the report indicated a very real danger?

[Gordon Rhodes]

Absolutely, and by being here, I'm in jeopardy for my job.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Do you feel concerned that there will be repercussions for coming before this committee?

[Gordon Rhodes]

Absolutely.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Where do you think those repercussions might come from?

[Gordon Rhodes]

Management.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

In your presentation, you asked how these people can be made accountable. Of course this is our concern, as we see this escalating rate of railway accidents. The government is pushing to do the same thing for the airlines.

What would you suggest to us?

[Gordon Rhodes]

I would suggest more auditing, not less, in the case of critical infrastructure, such as bridges. We're in the electronic age today, so how is it that a company can lose its maintenance records on a bridge? How is that? It might be convenient.

First, there should be a system in place where their engineer goes out and does the report. Then within a certain timeframe he has to send it to Transport Canada, and it has to be in their computer. It's all electronic and can be done on the spot, if you want it to be that way. He can do a report right there in his truck at the bridge, and then it can be in Transport Canada's computer.

If it's not there by a specific time, then somebody from Transport Canada should go out to inspect the bridge and bill them for it. They should also be fined: that's accountability.

How does a bridge fall down with a train on it? Sorry, I'm emotional since I've been part of something very awful. I witnessed two of my friends die right in front of me. Why? Because people don't want to hear the truth. People are afraid to talk about the truth, because the truth is going to cost money.

I'm not American, I'm Canadian, and I used to be proud to call my company Canadian National Railroad back in the 1980s. Now I'm not even allowed to do so. I'm supposed to say CNR. What's this?

They're telling us how they're going to run things. I think it's time you guys tell them how it's going to be run.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Fast.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Rhodes, for attending today. Your testimony has been quite moving. I sense that you've been significantly impacted by the events.

[Gordon Rhodes]

I'm so affected it's not funny. To ride in anything moving is very hard for me.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

I'd like to go back to what you said earlier. Since around 1989, safety within CN, at least, and I think we have to focus our discussion—

[Gordon Rhodes]

No—

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Is it generally so?

[Gordon Rhodes]

I would say the railways.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Safety in general has been declining on the railways.

[Gordon Rhodes]

Yes. I think that ever since the caboose, the culture of railroading has been disregarded, disrespected. I think there's been a lot of disrespect in the sense that people don't understand what's going on out there, and they just think that everything's okay. They don't understand the dynamics that are involved, that when a train has to stop fast, it just can't do it. And when it does do it fast, it's horrific. I've been at a derailment where cars were spread out wider than this room, and I walked away.