Transport Committee on April 16th, 2007

[Gordon Rhodes]

Personally, I think it should concern every Canadian, because I don't think it's right when a company can fire you for what they call “conduct unbecoming of an employee”. When you're not at work and you speak out and try to say something is wrong, they fire you because of that and they call it, in their generic terminology, “conduct unbecoming of a CN employee”.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Are you aware of that concern in other railway companies?

[Gordon Rhodes]

Absolutely.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Can you name them?

[Gordon Rhodes]

Do you mean other railway companies?

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Yes, or are you just talking about your experience with CN?

[Gordon Rhodes]

It used to be culturally really bad in the CPR, but my understanding is that management there changed its style, going away from the adversarial management system. Although I don't know the proper terminologies, they changed their management style, and I think they're finding out that they're much more successful.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

But CN has not done that.

[Gordon Rhodes]

No, CN has gone in the opposite direction. They're very adversarial. I call it the poisoned work environment, because that's what it is. Nobody wants to go to work there. Everybody's counting the days, the months, and the years until they're gone, until they're out of there. That's not the way it was, and that's not the way it was at B.C. Rail.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Volpe.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Rhodes, thank you very much for making the effort to come here. I, too, watched that particular program. I won't mention the name of the television station, for fear of being considered a panderer, but it was quite an interesting program. It must have been a very traumatic experience for you, so I really do appreciate the fact—and I know everybody else probably feels the same—that you did come here to give us your perspective on what's happening in the railway industry with respect to safety.

On two occasions that I counted, you made a reference to when the government took over from B.C. Rail. I'm just wondering whether it was me who made that connection or whether you really meant when CN took over B.C. Rail. Or did you mean when the Government of Canada and Transport Canada became responsible for safety management practices?

[Gordon Rhodes]

I meant Transport Canada. I feel that Transport Canada dropped the ball with the sale of B.C. Rail.

The way I look at it is this: CN is a big multinational corporation with railways going from Mexico to Canada; they have bought and absorbed many railways into their system, and they're experts at doing that. The problem here is that they absorbed one railway they had no expertise in. They thought they did, but they don't. Their arrogance is what happened, in the sense that they came in and took our GOI, general operating instructions, of probably some 50 years of railroad knowledge on how to run trains on that track, but they were going to do it their way because they wanted it all homogenized. They wanted it all one way, and that was it. They didn't listen to anybody, but just plowed ahead with their system.

Transport Canada didn't have anybody in position to have the knowledge to recognize that—or maybe there's just no legislation. I don't know. But they fell short in ensuring there was a proper transition going from the provincial regulations to the federal regulations. They fell short in recognizing the differences and what was needed, and because of that we've had all these accidents. Those accidents were preventable.

You're talking about a piece of track where we used to run five to seven trains a day, and CN ran two mega-trains. They tried to run two trains, and if you look at the accident ratio they have to the accident ratio we had—meaning B.C. Rail—it's night and day. It really is.

They can come in here and say all the fancy stuff they want, but the numbers, the realities, are there.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Rhodes, I took your statement comparing B.C. Rail running five or six runs per day and CN now doing it with two—because I guess they economized on three trips.... While each of the two are more expensive, it really does save them, because they're forgoing the other three. But there are experts in the field who say that's really not a problem. Even though I pointed out the issue you raised--i.e., the dynamic brake system--they say—

[Gordon Rhodes]

What experts are you talking to?

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

They're from the railway industry.

[Gordon Rhodes]

What experts? Because the reality is that if they haven't worked the track there, they're not experts; they are people who have knowledge, but they're not experts. You've got to work that track to be an expert, and they're not. That's why CN had those derailments, because the experts said they could do it. Their experts tell me I can take a train up the mountain with all these units. Then, gee, when I can't do it, I've got to double the hill. What I say to them is yes, your computer says I can do it, but my engines say no. That's the difference between a virtual railway and a real railway.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Are you telling us that in making the decision to go to the mega-trains, the mega-trips, the management did not consult with people who had been making those runs over a course of, I think you said, 25 years?

[Gordon Rhodes]

No, they didn't. And if they did, they didn't listen.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I mean, did they?

[Gordon Rhodes]

No, they didn't listen to us. We tried telling them those trains were too big. Various people tried telling them their trains were too big, that you can't run trains that big. We tried all of that, and that's what our GOI were all about. We have right in our GOI the maximum number of cars that can go up the Cheakamus, the maximum number of cars that can go up Kelly Lake, and there are reasons for it, because of the dynamics of the track in that area; it's so unique.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

But did you or any of your colleagues speak with the inspectors you had from B.C. Rail or Transport Canada at any time?

[Gordon Rhodes]

I'm sure they did. I know Don Faulkner wrote letters. Don Faulkner is one of the fellows who died.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Was this to B.C. Rail or to Transport Canada?

[Gordon Rhodes]

He wrote them to everybody, anybody who would listen. He wrote to Transport Canada and to anybody who'd listen. There are people in New Westminster who know who he was.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Can I interrupt for a second, Mr. Chairman? Can I ask you and the clerk to ask the department whether we can get a copy of those letters, or whether we have to go through the Access to Information Act?