Transport Committee on April 18th, 2007

[John Holliday]

We see Transport Canada after the fact. It's exactly what Don said earlier; Transport Canada seems to have no teeth.

To address the issue of American ownership, we feel they have very little respect for Canadian law, Canadian culture, Canadian collective agreements. As a matter of fact, the number of grievances that have been elevated to the level of the Canadian Railway Office of Arbitration I believe is up around 2,000. At CP Rail it's less than 10. We feel that's an indication of a lack of respect for certain issues.

[Donald Anderson]

Deregulation was brought in for the economic policies of Canada. Before deregulation it was very restrictive and it didn't allow the companies to move their product in an efficient manner. With the gradual relaxation of some of the regulations, it allowed the carriers to start moving their product in a more efficient manner. As a result of that, because of the way the Railway Safety Act is written, it allows the carriers, the railway companies, to determine their own rules as long as they're in compliance with the Railway Safety Act.

So the railways determine their own rules. They write their own rules, and if they're looking for something that might impede that process, all they have to do is write to the minister for an exemption. If the minister believes the safety of the public is not in jeopardy...and there may be other variables he would consider to allow that exemption to happen.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Can I ask both of you what your sense is of people actually showing up for work now in the rail industry, for the locomotive engineers? How would they have felt 10 to 15 years ago showing up to work and how would they feel today? Are they showing up to work thinking, “I hope I survive today”? Or are they showing up saying, “I hope nothing goes dramatically wrong. I know these things haven't been fixed, and I just hope we can get through the day”? Or do they have a certain confidence in the system?

[Donald Anderson]

No, the confidence is really lacking at this point, as I say, because of the whole environment, the railway environment. We work the trains.

I'm only going to speak for where I work. I ride the train in my territory. The speed limit is between 60 to 65 miles an hour. So we know when there are track deficiencies. We see what happens.

In order for our guys to get on the train, to put it mildly, the first thing I need to do when I come out that door from work...the equipment I'm going to be riding on needs to be sound. The track bed I'm going to be riding on needs to be sound. The signal system I'm going to be utilizing at work needs to be integral and we need to have rules in place that allow for the safe process and movement of trains.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Are you not seeing that?

[Donald Anderson]

No, especially with the equipment, the number of derailments, the reduced inspections. We see what's out there. We know what's out there. It's the lack of enforcement. Transport Canada might come around.... Sometimes it'll be a couple of years before they come around. Their inspection process is very reduced, as I said before, probably because of the number of inspections. This is my opinion only, but it seems more of a paper audit than an actual physical inspection.

[John Holliday]

Further to what Don said, yes, the stress level has increased dramatically in the last 10 years. I mentioned briefly post-traumatic stress disorder. We deal with so many close calls on the railway that sometimes it just takes a minor incident; it's like the straw that breaks the camel's back, and then, you know, a person is very stressed out.

I deal with conductors on the former E & N as a union rep, and I can tell you...there was one fellow who was working on a passenger train. One day he had somebody jump off the train at 40 miles an hour. They stopped the train, went back, and got this guy. A month later they ran over somebody and decapitated him. A month after that he had a minor incident and he was quite stressed out. He had a note from his doctor. He went to Mexico on a family vacation for a month, and when he got back he was fired because he didn't have the proper leave of absence.

We took that to arbitration and we lost. I couldn't believe it. This was a long-time employee, a conductor on the passenger train on the former Esquimalt-Nanaimo corridor on Vancouver Island.

There are numerous examples of guys who have had a number of close calls, and then they have one simple one, and the company gives them a hard time to book off, to take a day off. Eventually they just quit because the frustration level is so high. They can get no compensation from WCB. They get the runaround.

It's frustrating. The stress level is enormous, and it doesn't seem to be dissipating.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Monsieur Blaney is next.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I wish to take this opportunity to greet you as well as members of the committee. I'm very pleased to sit on this committee. I'd also like to thank the witnesses, and most specifically the mayor of Montmagny, who is showing how much he takes the interests of his fellow citizens to heart. You have managed to forge quite a broad consensus concerning railway safety, a concern which is shared by members of the committee.

When I sat on the committee, among other things, we examined a bill to regulate noise around marshalling yards. We're eager for it to obtain royal assent when it comes back from the Senate.

My first question would be for the mayor. As soon as the accident happened, Mr. Paul Boisvenue, a Transport Canada inspector, was mandated to keep the minister informed of the ongoing investigation. We know that first of all, speed had been reduced.

Can you tell us about the measures that have been taken since January?

[Jean-Guy Desrosiers]

Since January, specific conditions forced CN to reduce the speed of the trains. Because of the damage in the perimeter in question, for the first three weeks, the train went 10 miles/h and crossed the city at that speed. The following two weeks, the speed went up to 20 and then 30 miles/h because there was still work going on. They had to rebuild part of the ties on the bridge, and they were all replaced. During that period, the trains always ran at reduced speed. CN made a commitment to phone me a week in advance to notify me if the speed was to be increased the following week.

Meanwhile, on our side, we exerted pressure on politicians and various organizations. Earlier, I was listening to a witness who said that people were stressed out and traumatized. What can the law do when citizens are stressed and traumatized by the effects of the derailment in their neighbourhood? What can we do to solve that? Are there any provisions in the legislation that will allow the Department of Transport to say that following such incidents, for an indeterminate period, CN trains will cross the city at a given speed while the investigation is ongoing? The thing is, the TSB investigation can last a year and the final results may only be released two years later.

Why doesn't the Department of Transport simply acknowledge that such an incident happened in Montmagny and that damage was caused? If it's a matter of repairing, paying, repaving, replacing lawn, repairing buildings, there's no problem. But there are other problems that we will only see afterwards, namely how people are traumatized and how citizens are frustrated. Dozens of letters were written and we've had no response from CN. Right now I have quite a good relationship with the person responsible at CN: as long as I don't demand that trains run at 40 miles/h when he wants them to run at 60, we will get along fine. Right now, the train travels at 40 miles/h. Perhaps CN will tolerate the 40 mile/h limit for some time yet so that people can regain some feeling of safety, and perhaps it will increase the speed gradually thereafter, but that wouldn't solve the problem.

We have taken action. We've had to displace people and do things during that period, but we remain stuck with major problems. Once CN has repaired its facilities... In that regard, I must tell you that they are really professional because when it comes to restoring the location of the derailment, they're hard to beat. Succeeding in having a train pass there again two or three days later when the bridge crossing a river was destroyed is quite something. My hat is off to them. Let's say that their teams are fantastic. But they should be just as good when it comes to maintenance and other aspects. We at the city remain stuck with the collateral effects.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

In your opinion, is the current 40 mile/h speed satisfactory to the local population?

[Jean-Guy Desrosiers]

Yes, absolutely.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Their feeling of safety would be reinforced?

[Jean-Guy Desrosiers]

Yes, it would be reinforced. The noise is far less aggressive, so you feel safer. It's also a question of noise because the train passes at night. When the ground is frozen and the train passes at higher speeds, it has effects on the residences too. If the speed is reduced too much, we get another phenomenon: the people aren't happy because they wait too long at level crossings. We have to strike a balance. I think that 60 or 64 km or 30 miles/h within the municipality is logical. In Montmagny, drivers have to travel at 50 km/h. I fail to see why a train should have the right to travel across the city at 100 km/h.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Did you express these concerns to Mr. Boisvenue, the representative?

[Jean-Guy Desrosiers]

I didn't speak to Mr. Boisvenue because he is assisting the TSB in its inquiry; he is there as an observer. But I did speak to people from the TSB, just not directly to Mr. Boisvenue.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

For the time being, you found a compromise with CN regarding 40 miles/h. We're hoping that the bills we will put in place will—

[Jean-Guy Desrosiers]

CN made a commitment to maintain that speed for three months. Perhaps they knew that they'd have work to do for three months. I don't know if that's a concession or if they're forced to do that because of the work that's going on—

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Do I have a little time left?

My question is for Mr. Anderson.

In a document we were given, it says that accidents have increased in Canada since deregulation. Yet, there are three times fewer accidents in the United States. Is there some reason for that in your opinion? I'd like to hear your views on this subject.

[Donald Anderson]

Three times...?

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

There are three times fewer accidents in the United States than Canada?

[Donald Anderson]

It's probably because of the standards for car inspection, which would have a lot to do with that.

Gee, I really can't say anything other than that, but it's the maintenance of the cars, which would probably—

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Of the cars—and the railroad as well, I guess?

[Donald Anderson]

They probably have the same amount of track, the same amount of traffic.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Thank you.