Evidence of meeting #45 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sms.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Minister, my first question has to do with clause 12 of Bill C-6 which includes subsection 5.31(1) which reads as follows:
5.31(1) The Minister of Transport may designate, from among organizations that meet the conditions prescribed by regulation, one or more organizations whose activities relate to aeronautics to exercise or perform any of the powers, duties and functions set out in subsection (2). The Minister shall give a designated organization a certificate of designation...
Subsection 5.31(2) sets out the functions: the establishment of standards for the certification of persons, the establishment of rules governing the prescribed aeronautical activities and the establishment of standards for the issuing of approvals and authorizations, etc.
This brings us to subsection 5.31(3) which I will quote because I would like to hear your reaction to this:
(3) A designated organization has all the powers necessary to monitor compliance with the standards and rules that it establishes.
Minister, I want to know whether you fully agree with that.
Conservative
Lawrence Cannon Conservative Pontiac, QC
Do I fully agree? If I've understood the opinion of colleagues around this table I think we need to further clarify this provision. There is a need to strengthen the legislation, to clarify this provision so that it is very clear who issues the certificates, under what conditions, etc.
Honourable colleague, I would put the question to you and say that I am open to the idea of making sure there is no confusion and that we are fully operational—
Liberal
Conservative
Lawrence Cannon Conservative Pontiac, QC
In closing, once again this involves risk assessment. When you are transitioning—
I'm answering, sir. Go ahead, Mr. Bélanger, if you absolutely want to speak, go ahead. I thought I was here to answer your questions, but go ahead. If you absolutely want to have the floor, go ahead.
Liberal
Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
Minister, I am trying to be brief and specific. The question I'm asking is the following: Would you agree with the idea of having one agency designated to establish rules?
Conservative
Lawrence Cannon Conservative Pontiac, QC
Well, had you given me a chance to finish, I would have said that it depends on the level of risk and the field of activity.
Liberal
Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
My second question is to follow up on the comments made by one of our witnesses, whom I will also quote. His testimony was in English. He was the representative of the Air Line Pilots Association International.
The quote is as follows:
ALPA would like to comment on one other provision of this draft legislation, and that's clause 12, the power of the minister to designate organizations to act on the minister's behalf in certain areas. ALPA is of the strong view that this designation power must not be granted for commercial passenger and cargo operations. We note that the legislative language is quite broad, subject to regulations on which stakeholders are to be consulted, through the Canadian Aviation Regulation Advisory Council, or CARAC. We have been advised by Transport Canada officials that this provision is meant to address only low-risk, non-air-transport areas of the aviation industry. We recommend that the committee obtain, for the record, such an undertaking from the minister.
When asked, the witness confirmed that this had been given to them by Mr. Preuss. When Mr. Preuss came here, I couldn't ask that question. It will be my first question for him today.
Is this an accurate statement from the representative of ALPA?
Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
Yes, it is. And I think I've actually spoken to the committee about it, that it's envisioned to be applicable to low-risk areas of the industry, and specifically targeting areas where there is no regulation today.
Liberal
Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Minister, would you agree that if this is the intent of the legislator, it should be reflected in the proposed legislation?
Conservative
Liberal
Liberal
Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
I have never had any difficulty, Minister, treating people well when they reciprocate, never.
This is my third question. In his response to your parliamentary secretary, Judge Moshansky said that he believed that if Bill C-6 included a statement specifying that Transport Canada must maintain regulatory oversight, the bill would comply with international standards. He believed that in his opinion it did not.
I would like to hear your comments on this point, Mr. Minister.
Conservative
Lawrence Cannon Conservative Pontiac, QC
You know more than I do on that, I could read the comment but I will let Mr. Reinhardt summarize it and give you the specific reference so your researcher may obtain the information.
Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
I'm simply quoting the most recent ICAO audit conclusion, and I will read it in English:
The results of the audit indicate that Canada has developed appropriate specific operating regulations to enable it to effectively meet the regulatory requirements for safety oversight. The TCCA has developed the requisite regulatory functions, objectives and safety policies to implement its mandate to carry out safety oversight responsibilities. The TCCA has introduced regulatory changes to further improve the safety performance of Canadian air operators and increase accountability. The proposed changes would require air operators to implement safety management systems in their organizations, which could lead to the early identification and resolution of potential problems and safety risks. The expected result of this initiative would be the improvement of safety practices fostering stronger safety cultures within the civil aviation industry.
I find that this is a very good endorsement from the ICAO.
Liberal
Bloc
Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC
Good afternoon, Minister. I'm pleased that you and your deputy are here with us today.
As members of Parliament, we need to look at the entire issue of safety. The idea is not to oppose a bill just for the sake of opposing it. Being involved in drafting a bill enables us to convince people that it is the right thing to do.
I am going to be speaking again about the designated organizations that will be responsible for most safety procedures. It has been demonstrated that with the main carriers, the system was effective, and the ICAO report is along these lines. However, since this system was introduced, your inspectors have been checking and evaluating the systems that have been implemented rather than doing the inspections themselves. The fact that designated organizations establish safety management systems for other carriers will mean that inspections by our federal inspectors will be replaced by inspections carried out by these designated organizations.
Personally, I do not find that reassuring. On the contrary, I am very concerned that fewer inspectors will be required and that their job will be to check on the systems established by a small validation company. I am very concerned about that. I would like you to tell me whether you are still determined to set up these designated organizations?
Conservative
Lawrence Cannon Conservative Pontiac, QC
I would say that we intend to continue to move in this direction. However, we should perhaps review one historic aspect of aviation. The Liberals are always relying on the report by Mr. Justice Moshansky, which dates back to the 1990s, but the situation has changed since that time. Jets have virtually replaced turboprop aircraft, and there has been a spectacular reduction in aircraft accidents since that time. It must be acknowledged that we are now at a different level in terms of safety. As I was saying, the aviation industry has integrated this increase in safety by means of the Safety Management System. It is recognized not only by almost all of the witnesses who appeared before the committee, but it is also the way in which most countries in the international civil aviation community deal with this issue.
This is in fact the direction in which we are heading. As I said earlier, we are not talking about removing anything at all as regards safety. What we are doing is moving to a different level. That is why I am quite prepared to discuss with you possible amendments to the legislation to ensure that it deals better with your concerns.
Bloc
Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC
You have often said, Minister, in the House and elsewhere, that safety management systems strengthen safety. In cases where the system was introduced in large companies, the direct inspections that were formally carried out by our federal inspectors have been replaced by validation of the system in place. We are not adding any checks: we are replacing inspections by our federal inspectors with inspections of systems you consider acceptable and good.
So we have a third party looking after our safety, and we have to rely on this third party. That is the danger of the system, in my opinion, particularly in the case of small companies. I know that there have been changes in aviation and that we now have large jets, but the small companies are not necessarily at this point. However, they still need to have their safety system checked.
Conservative
Lawrence Cannon Conservative Pontiac, QC
I certainly understand what you are saying, Mr. Carrier. Mr. Laframboise said the same thing. I looked into this myself, and I can tell you that we are not substituting what used to be done with a different practice. However, it must be acknowledged that the situation has evolved in a fair and reasonable way. However, that does not mean that those doing the inspection today will be replaced by the director of safety at a particular company, the maintenance superintendent, the president or the executive director. That is not correct. That is not what is happening. Once again, I can assure you that that is not the objective of this bill.
The objective of this bill is also not to abolish jobs. Rather, we want Canada to maintain its leading position in the area of aviation safety. It has an international reputation, and this has been confirmed by the ICAO. That is why, I would say in closing that many countries are interested in finding out about the techniques Canada has used. We should be very pleased and proud of the way in which Transport Canada does its job. It has an international reputation.
