Evidence of meeting #48 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sms.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
Thank you, Mr. Watson, and thank you, Mr. Chair.
First of all, we asked a question of Transport Canada and some other officials, and they said it would take more than three months for one inspector to inspect a plane. To do a total inspection, there are a lot of nuts, a lot of wires, a lot of problems. But my understanding is that SMS is a system over here where the information is confidential. The person who gives that information is kept confidential and the information itself is confidential. If that information gets to Transport Canada, which of course it's supposed to because that's what it's all about, it initiates an audit. Now, with that audit, inspectors go out and inspect that airline based upon that information from SMS. That information is publicly disclosed on request. Is that not the situation, Mr. Rubin? I'd like to hear from you, because that's my information from the department.
Public Interest Researcher, As an Individual
Well, Transport Canada issued an e-mail on November 3 to all of its personnel, which I got under the Access to Information Act and I can share with the committee. It says:
Unless expressly asked to do so by the accountability manager, Aviation Enforcement shall no longer initiate an investigation into a contravention committed by an SMS certificate holder.
Then further down, it says:
For now, all open EMS cases against SMS regulatory audits SMS certificate holders should be closed as NF-Abandoned. In addition to other information EMS, it is important that the following comments be included
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
My question to you, Mr. Rubin--and I understand what you're reading there--is if what I've suggested is the truth, and obviously this committee is going to find out, would you feel more comfortable with this if that public disclosure was made at the audit stage, the inspection stage, after the SMS identified those issues?
Public Interest Researcher, As an Individual
I think it's a big leap to assume that there will be any more audits. But even the International Civil Aviation Organization has never gone this far in terms of their philosophy on safety management, that there be no public disclosure. Furthermore—
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
Mr. Rubin, to be blunt, you haven't answered my question. My question is there for a reason, and I would really like an answer to it.
Public Interest Researcher, As an Individual
Sir, how do you know that audits are going to be done when they've issued directives saying that audits don't have to be done for now?
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
You've heard today that we, as a government, are coming forward with some amendments to that, and we've heard that other—
Public Interest Researcher, As an Individual
Well, that's good if you do. I would wholeheartedly—
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
I'm asking the question because I'd like to know how you feel about it.
Public Interest Researcher, As an Individual
If you legalize, just like they're trying to legalize—
Public Interest Researcher, As an Individual
Bill C-6 is trying to legalize SMS. I'm saying wait a minute, why aren't you legalizing regulatory audits, and why aren't you legalizing and promoting a system of air safety? If that's the case, that's wonderful.
Let me raise one other thing. That is, on October 17, 1994, why would the director general of systems safety at the time, Mr. Stewart, say this:
Effective immediately, confidential safety surveys are not to be offered to industry or internal Transport Canada clients. If you have a survey scheduled, it should be cancelled until further notice. I will discuss in detail during our workshop next week in Toronto.
Why did Transport Canada not learn from experience and not repeat history by implementing a dysfunctional faulty system?
I would wholeheartedly agree that if you bring back regulatory audits, you're doing the right thing. That's what regulation is all about.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
Mr. Rubin, I'd just like to say that in 1994 there wasn't a Conservative government in power, so....
Public Interest Researcher, As an Individual
Well, I hope that explains everything.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm not sure what to do in 40 seconds here.
Ms. Brazier, I want to go to your presentation and to something that really concerns me. You say that “companies in our sector have a simple choice: they can break the laws and sacrifice safety, or they can go out of business”. May I ask which of these is your choice? Quite honestly, is that the situation you find yourself in?
President, Operations Manager and Chief Pilot, Dax Air Inc.
Would you like to see our financial records?
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
Is your competitive situation so bad that your company is either going to go out of business or you have to break the law?
President, Operations Manager and Chief Pilot, Dax Air Inc.
I think we gave you a fairly clear and succinct example of the choice we were faced with. That is a choice, so I guess time will tell what happens with our company.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed
Thank you, Mr. Watson.
I have one minute for each party to ask one brief question.
Mr. Bell.
Liberal
Don Bell Liberal North Vancouver, BC
I'd like to follow up on the question that Mr. Watson asked. I was going to ask a variation on the same thing. In your letter of March 13, page 2, item 7, you said, “Companies in our sector have a simple choice: they can break the laws and sacrifice safety, or they can go out of business.” What you did was a variation of that, not going out of business, but losing business because you wouldn't comply.
Your next sentence is the one I like, which Mr. Watson didn't have time to get to perhaps:
We are trying to create a third option and that is to change the law and the approach of Transport Canada so that everyone is competing on a level and safe playing field.
You won't have time in the one minute I have, but perhaps you could provide a little more detail on how you understand that third option and send that to the committee for distribution.
President, Operations Manager and Chief Pilot, Dax Air Inc.
Certainly I will do that, but may I make a quick statement--30 seconds or so?
One of the things we covered in our presentation today was the single most important thing to resolve that one little point you're asking about, and that is to have an arbitrator. When there is a question on a point of law, we want a place to go. When there is any question for an operator to deal with, whether it's an inspector or a policy or a department, whatever it is, we want to be able to go to an outside agent and have a ruling on the law. If we can determine what the law is, it's much easier to actually abide by the law and to persuade others to abide by the law. Maybe we'd have more inspector resources available if we weren't arguing about the law.