Transport Committee on May 2nd, 2007

[Kirsten Brazier]

Perhaps in my naivety I thought an insurance company, insuring for a large volume of dollars under the liability, would be interested in seeing how a company operates. Since Transport Canada doesn't seem interested in really taking a look at how the operators operate, maybe the insurance companies would be interested to know.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Mr. Zed has generously given his time to Mr. Bélanger.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I might share with Mr. Bell too. We'll see.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I want to go back to explore the SMS implementation, because it intrigues me. We don't have such systems in the small operators, but we have them at Air Canada. Where else are they right now?

[Richard Balnis]

CAR 705. I'm just pulling out their Transport Canada brochure, but the carriers that I would know about would be Air Canada, Air Transat, and Calm Air. They're in phase 2.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Let's look at Air Canada. I presume Transport Canada approaches the company and says, would you do this, or, you are going to do this?

How does it work?

[Richard Balnis]

It's not a question of Transport Canada approaching you. When they issued their exemption, they created a three-year timetable: you've got to do this by this, or we're going to pull your operating certificate.

So the operator got their brain focused and met the first milestone, then they organized themselves to meet the second milestone, and then they will do whatever they have to do in the third year. Then Transport Canada will go, click, the regulations are on.

These are for existing operators, not for new people who started today. I don't know much about that.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Now, I presume the inherent purpose of having air operators get a safety management system is to create an environment that will lead to better safety, and therefore involve, I would imagine—that's why I'm asking you—the various elements, including flight attendants, pilots, maintenance crews, and whatever else, into this culture of being conscious of the need for more safety. Is that correct?

[Richard Balnis]

Curiously—and it's one of our recommendations, I believe number 11—Transport Canada Aviation did not require the effective involvement of workers in the development and implementation of SMS. We were told that it was improper, illegal.

However, if you look at the rail safety SMS in Mr. Julian's glossy brochure, they require worker involvement as security.

These operators have not involved us in the implementation and maintenance of SMS, which is a very curious way to build a culture—from the top down, without the workers involved, particularly when we believe our rights under the code are not being respected. That is a big problem that we've tried to bring to Transport Canada's attention.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Are you talking only about flight attendants, or are you aware of how it is for pilots and others?

[Richard Balnis]

I'm aware of it, but I won't speak for anybody other than flight attendants. At Air Canada, Air Transat, and now at Calm Air, we found a new 90-page manual, apparently approved by Transport Canada, because there's a signing page for the minister—we've asked him if it's been approved—that violates part II of the Canada Labour Code.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Would you share that with the committee, please, or has it already been shared?

[Richard Balnis]

It's not in the book. This is a Calm Air document.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

We can ask them to come before the committee.

[Richard Balnis]

It would be great if you would. I'll give you the reference for that, but it's a Calm Air document.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I want to go back, before I give 30 seconds to Mr. Bell here. The flight attendants have not been involved, or have they been involved individually? How does it come together? How do the flight attendants then subscribe willingly to an SMS? Do they get a memo that says this is the way it's going to be from here on in?

[Richard Balnis]

In June 2002, Air Canada implemented a new non-punitive safety reporting policy. We tried to negotiate it. They did negotiate one with the pilots, but for the people in the back, they didn't. It's just been implemented over us. We don't know how it works. For the last year and a half, we've been entirely excluded from any company implementation meetings at that airline.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Are you aware of the flight attendants or their representatives having meetings with the management, where Transport Canada safety inspectors were present or people who were in charge of overseeing the SMS, if there is such a creature in the Air Canada SMS? Have you had such meetings?

[Richard Balnis]

At the Ottawa headquarters level, because we went to Transport Canada, after our meeting with Mr. Cannon—

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

No, I'm talking about with Air Canada, where both the flight attendants and Air Canada management are talking to each other about concerns, difficulties, successes, with someone from Transport Canada in attendance, someone who has a regulatory oversight function. Has that happened?

[Richard Balnis]

Not in the last 18 months.

There have been meetings chaired by Transport Canada, to bang our heads together to make it work, but the inspectors weren't there because they were having profound disagreements over how it would be implemented. But that's different from what you're asking. In terms of us and Air Canada talking, those meetings haven't happened in 18 months--guaranteed.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Now, I have a question to you, Mr. Chairman. Would it be appropriate for staff to ask others in Air Canada, say pilots and ground maintenance crews and so forth, to get someone from them coming back to us?

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Absolutely. I think we can send a letter and make that request.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you. I'd like that, if we could.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.