Evidence of meeting #53 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was review.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport
The safety management system mandates that every employee must be involved. This was confirmed in our audit. Employees confirmed exactly what you said, namely that in several cases, they were not at all informed about the safety management system.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I will continue with Mr. Laframboise's line of questioning. If I understand correctly, you cannot impose sanctions or consequences on railway companies when they violate safety standards or standards established by Transport Canada.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
No, there are none, except for the notices and orders, which we have frequently issued. In fact, a ministerial order was issued under section 32 relating to the SMS, which had just been implemented, in order to force CN to provide us with a plan of action to remedy the situation. We don't have any tools, we cannot suspend CN's operating licence, for instance, as we could very easily do in the case of Air Canada. We cannot impose a sanction on CN as we frequently do on airlines, for example. The law does not give us any of these tools. We can only take delinquent companies to court. And then it is the judge, the court, that decide on the amount of the penalties.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
There are six cases before the courts today, but none of them has been resolved.
Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport
No. Since 2002, they were found guilty twice. The other cases have not yet been resolved.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
But there were cases even before then.
Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport
Yes, it happened in the past, but to come back to the dates mentioned by Mr. Laframboise, since 2002, two cases were disposed of. There are still four cases before the courts. I was told today that in fact there are five cases.
To answer your question and to continue with what Mr. Grégoire was saying, section 31 of the act authorizes us to issue notices and orders. Then, if there's non-compliance with section 31, we can take legal action under section 41. But there's nothing we can do between these two steps.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
All right. Was this in the law before the SMS was created?
Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport
Not since 1988, so not since the current act came into force. I can't speak to the former Railway Act.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
Thank you for that clarification. I think that basically answers my second question. We know that the companies are obliged to report on the SMS. However, if they produce a report which makes all kinds of promises, such as training employees, but then they don't do so, there is no way of monitoring the situation, except by applying the article you mentioned, which involves going before the courts.
Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport
In fact, every year, they have to provide us with an update of their SMS which we briefly examine to make sure it is in accordance with the regulations. So that does get reviewed.
As for training, under existing rules training is mandatory. For example, there are rules which say that the people who work on trains must receive training. There is an ongoing independent review of the SMS.
A little earlier, the chairman referred to the Railway Association of Canada and to the panel. The Railway Association of Canada submits a report to the panel which ensures that the Railway Safety Act is applied. In that report, we were criticized as having implemented the SMS as another layer on top of security. But we never got rid of the system which was in place before. One system is on top of the other. But we were also criticized for that. I think that the industry believed that once we had adopted the SMS, we would get rid of the other system. But that never happened in the railway sector.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
So the review process is important. How many inspectors work in the rail network today?
Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport
There are 101 inspectors.
NDP
Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport
Two engineering positions in Ottawa are vacant: one engineer left for a smaller centre and the other one went to a department. As far as I'm concerned, to the best of my knowledge, we have everyone we need in the smaller centres. One or two may have retired, but certainly no more than that.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
The perception of the public is that there have not been any improvements. I'm looking at the statistics you gave us. There have been many major incidents in the news, especially in our neck of the woods. Mr. Fast, Mr. Bell and I come from British Columbia. Every time there is a derailment, the public becomes even more skeptical, because it does not believe that things are being well-managed.
Has there been a change in the way CN reports accidents? Is it possible that minor accidents are not reported?
Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport
The people from the TSB could answer that question. They are the ones who collect all the information; we don't do that. We have the same kind of access you do to the statistics they compile following accidents which are reported to them.
