Transport Committee on May 28th, 2007

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Mr. Chair, I have another question for our legal counsel, Ms. Stanfield.

I'm just concerned that we're going to be attracting litigation right off the get-go. The wording we are using right now is “in a manner that meets the highest safety standards established”, followed by a comma. But it begs the questions, established by whom? Immediately we're introducing an ambiguity into the legislation that is going to attract litigation.

Why are we even dealing with this clause? I have serious concerns that we're creating a monster here in clause-by-clause. We're opening up more avenues for litigation when in fact we should be introducing clarity into this bill, if that's necessary.

[Susan Stanfield]

I agree that it introduces uncertainty. That's the first question anyone is going to ask when they interpret this provision: established by whom?

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

The minister acts by way of regulation or some other method. I'm not sure that's the issue here; it's the ambiguity within this particular amendment. I just don't grasp it.

[Susan Stanfield]

Yes. There really isn't anything else I can say about it. The drafting raises a question, definitely.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Mr. Chair, could I ask the Liberal members to listen to legal counsel? I'm really concerned.

[An hon. member]

We are listening.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Sorry, you were chatting. All right. You understand the issue then.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Perhaps not as well as you do, Mr. Fast, but we try.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

You flatter me, sir.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

As I mentioned when we started this process, because of the speed involved, we knew we'd encounter from time to time some typos and errors in drafting and translation of the amendments. This is one of those cases. It should say, “before paragraph (b)”, not “before paragraph (d)”.

I think we're going to run into this regularly. It is good that the opposition parties were all able to get their amendments in by that date, but it's inevitable that we will have slight translation errors or slight typos that we have to correct. It's just a normal matter of course.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

I believe Mr. Julian is saying that in proposed subsection 4(1), where it says “before paragraph (d)”, it's a typo error that should read “(b)”, as in Bob.

Is that clear for everyone?

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Yes, that's right.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Volpe.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

The question I asked earlier of the representative, Ms. Stanfield, was precisely related to that. This particular clause might not necessarily constrain the minister, but remove him from the responsibility that accrues to the minister making the rules and ensuring that they are enforced by establishing uncertainty here--as I say, established by whom? That's why I asked those other questions regarding which standards.

The underlying question was always, whose standards? And I think I actually asked that. Can he be held to any standard other than the Canadian one? I think it's the Canadian law that is going to apply; it's not another one.

[Susan Stanfield]

He makes the policy, and then the legislation or the regulations are created to reflect the policy decision. He makes the policy decisions in the international context in aviation because of various agreements and treaties.

In this provision, if I had to interpret it, I would argue it means that aeronautical activities are conducted at all times in a manner that meets the highest safety standards that are established. If the question mark is “by whom”, in the absence of anything else, it's the minister, so it's kind of circular.

To get back to the other provision being amended to say “paragraph (b)”, when you interpret the amending formula--the stuff in bold in the motion--in order to understand what that means you have to look at the act in force now. The effect of what you're proposing is that paragraph (a) in the existing act will be wiped out. Right now paragraph (a) reads, “promote aeronautics by such means as the Minister considers appropriate”. I question whether that's really your intent or whether you instead mean that “the portion of section 4.2 of the act before paragraph (a) is replaced by the following”.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Every member around the table would intend that the minister always be held to a standard that includes everything, even if we don't know it. The responsibility of the minister and his department is to know it, for the purposes of greater safety. It isn't the intention of any member around this table, I think, to limit him or her.

[Susan Stanfield]

Okay. So it's inadvertent, then.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Bell.

[Don Bell, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

The issue that Mr. Volpe and Mr. Fast raised addressed the issue of the highest safety standards, as established by whom. That was addressed in BQ-7, which we've defeated, which talked about international organizations, including the International Civil Aviation Organization. So Mr. Fast, the BQ-7 did define who we were talking about in that case.

If I understood the answer of Ms. Stanfield, if we said here--and I'd like to get her comment--“the highest international safety standards”, would that work?

Now in paragraph (a) I think I heard you say there is a reference to...no, it's vague, it says “to the standards established by the Minister”. Is that what you said?

[Susan Stanfield]

That's the wording that's in there now. If you were interpreting it, that would be how you might answer the question.

[Don Bell, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

But aeronautics isn't something that's just within Canada; we're dealing with an international arena.

[Susan Stanfield]

Yes.

[Don Bell, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

We're talking about international safety standards. I think we're saying we want Canadian standards to either meet or exceed those international standards. But we don't want to be limited by international standards that are lower than what we think would be appropriate in Canada.

We should be prepared to accept the international standards as the minimum for whatever we have because we're dealing in an international market. Is that a fair assumption?

[Susan Stanfield]

It's a policy question.