Transport Committee on June 6th, 2007

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

You've convinced me. I've examined all that. To sum up, when you conduct an audit, you gather the statements of all those who, under the SMSs, volunteer information. Their names are kept secret. You use that, you conduct an audit, and you transmit the main points of what, in your view, worked and didn't work. Ultimately, from what you're telling us, the audit findings will be available under the Access to Information Act.

[Franz Reinhardt]

Absolutely.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

I want to be convinced of that. The problem is that, given Mr. Ranger's statement, my reaction is to want to talk to him in order to be sure I'm not mistaken. There is also Mr. Julian's statement concerning the Air Transat audit. Obviously, you must know whether there was an audit at Air Transat. It's not a small company.

[Franz Reinhardt]

There have been a number. The thing is to know which one it is. We were in good faith. Mr. Preuss asked him to tell him the date so that he could give him what he was requesting. The documents have to be put together. The key is to get the date.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

I think the chair has asked Mr. Julian to provide that.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Yes, but the clerk can as well, Mr. Chair. It was actually one of the documents that was submitted with CUPE.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

I realize that, but you've raised the issue. I would hope that you would refer to it so that we can--

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

I can, but it's back in my office, so I can't do it until after the meeting.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Fine. I appreciate it.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

This was part of the testimony that was given to every member of the committee. I'm not coming out of left field--surely not right field--on this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Monsieur Bélanger.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

If I may, Mr. Chairman, I've been sent a note from CUPE, and I suspect this may be the information we're looking for.

I will quote a portion of it: “CUPE filed an Access to Information request for the audit of Air Transat SMS from January 2004. Transport Canada's response is contained in the CUPE book of documents accompanying the May 2, 2007 submission to SCOTIC.” The tab they referred to quotes that pages 84 to 104 of this report were exempt due to paragraphs 20(1)(b) and (d), and subsection 19(1).

That's the information I have, and with it I hope we can clear this up. I think it's important that we do.

[Franz Reinhardt]

It begs the question, Mr. Bélanger, was it really an audit or was it an expression used by CUPE?

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I don't know. This is the information I have, and I'm sharing it with the committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Bell.

[Don Bell, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you. My questions follow along the same line.

I think I understand the answer given to Mr. Laframboise, that such information would be available with the appropriate blackouts in terms of individuals. Is that correct? The substance of an SMS audit would be available?

[Merlin Preuss]

No, the total audit would be available. That's an official document of the department. It's available through ATIP, just like the forensic audits that are done. If we do an SMS assessment, once the regulation's in place, that SMS assessment is no different from the audit we did 10 years ago on Canadian Pacific Airlines.

Just to remind the group again, the protections we've put in here are for SMS data provided in the SMS system. They are nothing to do with anything that we would do formally, neither an inspection nor an audit nor an assessment nor a validation nor a report that comes from an incident. It's very tightly controlled to permit individuals to report without fear.

[Don Bell, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Let's say an individual reports something under the SMS system and the individual does not believe appropriate action has been taken by the company. They go through the process that we've said they first of all go through, the SMS, or the in-house system, if you want to call it that. They don't feel appropriate action has been taken. They bring that information to a member of this committee or to Transport Canada directly, or come to the ministry or make it available to somebody.

[Franz Reinhardt]

Yes.

[Don Bell, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

We can then access that information?

[Franz Reinhardt]

Correct, and they're fully protected with the proposed amendments that we have now, if they do that.

[Don Bell, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Okay.

[Franz Reinhardt]

If it doesn't work at the first level, they will still be protected at the second level.

[Don Bell, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Okay, but they're not protected if they come here first instead of going through the in-house system?

[Merlin Preuss]

There are two levels of protection, I think. The first protection is from whether someone is going to take retribution. So what we did in amendment G-3 is to say that it doesn't matter; as long as you've gone to the SMS, you're going to have the whistle-blower-like protections.