Transport Committee on June 13th, 2006

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Should such a complaint come to the TSB, would it then be routed elsewhere?

[Wendy A Tadros]

That's correct.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Carrier.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Good morning.

The annual report you spoke of earlier summarizes your recommendations. Can you tell me if you also follow up on your recommendations, to see if the recommendation has either been implemented or put on hold?

Since you're familiar with the body of safety regulations, you surely keep abreast of developments and of all regulatory changes. Therefore, you must also know if a particular regulation has been enacted to correct a particular problem.

Is mention made of these changes in your report, or are you merely content with pointing out that you have made a certain number of recommendations, without actually trying to find out if these recommendations have been implemented or not?

[Wendy A Tadros]

We track each and every one of our recommendations and indicate the action that has been taken. If something happens between the last time we tracked and the next time, if there's some action on that issue, we put it in there.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

The follow up action taken is detailed in your annual report?

[David Kinsman]

Until now, this has not been covered in the annual report. We simply list the recommendations made over the course of the year in question.

As Ms. Tadros explained earlier, last year we initiated a process whereby each recommendation not deemed fully satisfactory is reviewed by our staff to see if any improvements or changes have been made further to our proposals. Our Board then determines if the follow up action is satisfactory, somewhat satisfactory or unsatisfactory.

The results will be posted this year on our website, rather than be included in our annual report.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Therefore, if parliamentarians want a status report on follow up action, they need only consult your website.

[David Kinsman]

For now, yes.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Is there any chance that these findings could be included in the annual report?

[David Kinsman]

There is no reason why they couldn't be.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

I'd like that.

Now then, I'd like to turn your attention to the Air France accident in Toronto last summer. You state in your report that when any shortcomings are noted, you take immediate action and contact stakeholders, rather than wait until the release of your final report. To my knowledge, no incident report has been released in connection with this accident. Transport Canada is planning to reduce the number of flight crew members. Therefore, it would be interesting to see your report to find out where you stand on this proposed initiative. Would you care to share your views with us?

[Wendy A Tadros]

We have done an update on the Air France investigation. You're right that we haven't issued safety communications to date on that investigation. But in order to communicate with Transport Canada on that issue, we would have had to identify it and determine that there was a safety deficiency in that accident. We have cabin safety specialists on the staff of the board, and it's one of the issues we are looking at.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Do you know when your report into this particular incident will be released?

[Wendy A Tadros]

I can't give you an exact date, but I can tell you where it is in the process. The draft report is being created. That draft report will then go to the designated reviewers. They will have 30 days in which to comment on it. Then we will go through each and every one of those representations and develop a final report.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

That seems like a rather lengthy process.

Surely your specialized staff needs ongoing training to review all of the new regulations in force in Canada and in foreign countries. Do you have an adequate budget for training? Is it a fixed budget? Do you have a problem providing training to your personnel?

[David Kinsman]

You're quite right. In the case of an organization like ours that is constantly confronted with technological advances, it's important to keep abreast of new developments. We do our best to ensure that our experts are up on technological advances because it's very important to us that our employees are considered experts in their field.

Each year, we earmark funds specifically for training which is provided in house, elsewhere in Canada or, in some cases, abroad. This is one area that Mr. Stoss needs to monitor closely. We want to be certain that we're never in a position where our employees lag behind others in terms of technical expertise.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Fast.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all, three of you, for appearing before our committee.

I'd like to follow up on an earlier line of questioning that had to do with the relationship between the investigative function and the enforcement function. You've made it very clear you're not a quasi-judicial body, in that you don't actually make decisions on fault. As I understand it, a number of other steps could be taken beyond your mandate. One would be within the regulatory and perhaps legislative process, and the other would be the enforcement process.

Out of any accident, issues of enforcement may arise. Can you take us on that journey, tell us how that would happen, and advise the committee as to whether the evidence that's gathered within your investigative function can be used in subsequent proceedings? Can you recommend that charges be laid? I'm assuming you can't. If not, then who actually makes those decisions? I'd just like to understand that relationship between the various bodies within the transportation field.

[Wendy A Tadros]

I'll start with the notion of charges being laid, because that's something that comes up from time to time. In the accident investigation world it's really an anathema, because we're trying to figure out what happened and why and get to the bottom of it and look at the underlying safety deficiencies. So to find somebody and say, aha, this is the fellow who did this and he should be charged--that doesn't take us to where we need to go. Where we need to go is to figure out what was happening within that system and make recommendations to bring about the changes.

However, it's a complex world, and there are always a number of organizations, including police organizations, that may be working on the same set of facts. In terms of going step by step through the kinds of situations we might face in an investigation where there is also a suggestion of criminal activity, I'm going to turn it over to Mr. Stoss, because he's been on the ground an awful lot.

[Nick Stoss]

I'll cover your first question, which was our involvement with other enforcement agencies, for example, Transport Canada. The Minister of Transport has an observer on our investigation whose job is to see if there are any significant issues there. If we see a serious regulatory infraction, we are compelled to report it to them. However, Transport Canada does its own separate investigation.

We have similar provisions in our act. If we find criminal activity we must notify the responsible police force. It is up to the police force to conduct its investigation. We will continue conducting our safety investigation.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

But the evidence gathered within your investigation can be used in subsequent proceedings, whether civil or criminal?

[Nick Stoss]

The information we have is used strictly for safety purposes. If I may comment on that, there are provisions within the act that any of our reports or any sort of evidence we have cannot be used in other legal proceedings.

[Wendy A Tadros]

So we have very strong provisions in our legislation that can draw a circle around the information we gather during our investigation, and neither that information nor our report flow over into the court processes.