Transport Committee on March 13th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Jean.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again, I appreciate your coming today.

On page 204, you indicate, speaking of British Columbia, that actually the province inspects, audits, and enforces in relation to the Railway Safety Act. Indeed, except for Saskatchewan, that's the only province where Transport Canada is not really involved in the inspection or enforcement.

Is that correct, sir?

[Douglas Lewis]

They do it under a memorandum of understanding with Transport Canada.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

All right.

When I heard “skyrocket” from my friend across the floor in the NDP and that statistically things were going up tremendously, we note on page 12 that in 2006, the number of main-track derailments was about 11.3%, but even though there was an upwards trend from 1997 to 2005 in accidents overall, in 2006 we actually saw a drop of approximately 8% overall, of all incidents, even though main-track derailments were up.

It appeared to me that there were about 70 or 80 main-track derailments across Canada per year--somewhere between 70 and 100. Is that correct? I just didn't see the numbers.

[Douglas Lewis]

If I may suggest, Mr. Jean, the chart on page 12 is not as instructive as the chart on page 14, which separates them. The figures on page 12, total reported rail accidents, are helped by the fact that the railway crossing accidents had such a dramatic drop. So I think when you drill down, as we do on page 14, you get a better picture.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Absolutely. My actual point, though, is that we're talking about main-track derailments.

I was a statistician as well as a lawyer in a previous life. How do you save a drowning statistician? You take your foot off his head. I know that's how people feel about politicians and lawyers as well, but my point is that overall we're talking about a situation where statistically we're within the margin of error, plus or minus, per year on main-track derailments. We're talking of a single-digit increase or decrease, in essence, overall. That's my point.

But I'd like to get on to some really substantive questions.

You said one thing that alarmed me, that 12% of accidents happen while dangerous goods are moving. Is that correct, that 88% are happening while they're standing still, while they're not moving? So they're either unloading--

[Douglas Lewis]

Or they're being loaded, yes.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

That's a serious issue. Is that dealt with in your report in more detail? I didn't see that or ways that we can solve that.

[Douglas Lewis]

We also point out that at the same time they're going down.

We were quite impressed with anybody handling a dangerous good who came before the committee and the efforts they have put into it. TransCARE is a system or a culture that has been developed in Canada and is taken around the world. Our chemical producers have been the ones that brought that kind of improvement about.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Indeed, I was concerned about that. I didn't recognize that before.

I have a quick question. I'm limited on my time and our chair keeps us within boundaries.

Would it be helpful if we had an international standard of reporting incidents? I did an analysis on U.S. accidents, even on Australia's accidents. It's very difficult to compare apples to apples because they don't do the same reporting. Would it be helpful to have an international standard like we do in air traffic?

[Douglas Lewis]

In my opinion, yes. How fast could we achieve it? That would be difficult.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Finally, I'm not sure if you had an opportunity to--

[Douglas Lewis]

I've just been reminded, and I should have realized it, but the beauty of air travel is that air is air. Our problem in this country is in the geography as you go from one part of the country to another. Geography affects railway travel much more than it would air.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Indeed, I think that was the point of my friend.

I asked Justice Moshansky this question. Would the accident at Dryden have happened if an effective safety management system would have been in place at that time? He said no, it likely would not have happened, because if there is ice on a plane wing, it would be impossible, no matter how many inspectors you had--even if you had an inspector for every aircraft--to see that. The possibility was very minor. Indeed, he endorsed the SMS system--an effective SMS system. I did want to make that point.

The final question I have is on Air Transat. You made mention that Air Transat was an example you used for the SMS system. I would like you to tell us why you used Air Transat and how long, to your knowledge, they've been using the safety management system. This government is trying to put that into the aeronautics industry, but it is currently being blocked, and it has been for months, by the NDP.

[Douglas Lewis]

We specifically used Air Transat because of an experience Tim had. I wasn't at that particular interview, but I think it would be instructive.

[Tim Meisner, Executive Director, Railway Safety Act Review Secretariat, Department of Transport]

I wouldn't say it was an individual experience, but from the department on the aviation side as they put in the SMS system. Air Transat was one of the companies that was really positive about it and saw positive results. We encouraged the panel members to talk to them to see what the results were from a company's perspective and to see if it could be applied to the railway industry. I think the response they had from Air Transat was not only from a safety perspective, but it's also been profitable for them.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

After that, it was their conclusion as well that it is a safe system and it is working for Air Transat.

[Tim Meisner]

I would say that was the panel's conclusion, yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you.

I'm going to allow 30 seconds for each group.

Mr. Bell, very briefly.

[Don Bell, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would go back to the first question I asked you in the last round. It was the one about the resources from the government to Transport Canada to, in effect, properly do the job. As a former minister, you'd appreciate both sides, and I'd appreciate your comments. It appears that Transport Canada is not being funded adequately in terms of the balance, recognizing the importance of the railway system to the Canadian economy.

[Douglas Lewis]

I think the effort has to be made with the officials of the Ministry of Finance. It's not the ministry so much; it's the officials. We have to get it through their heads that if we want to improve the system, and if the Canadian railway system is as important to the Canadian economy as we know it is, you have to fund it as it grows. The funding to monitor it has to go hand in hand.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Julian, for 30 seconds.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just for the record, Justice Moshansky opposes Bill C-7, as do millions of other Canadians, which is why the government isn't implementing it.

There are many Canadians who came before your inquiry and said that SMS was the wrong approach. I'm wondering why their views aren't reflected in the report.

[Douglas Lewis]

I don't remember that many Canadians substantiated that, but I do note that Australia is bringing in national railway safety laws, and they make specific reference to the development and contents of safety management systems, to strengthened audit and enforcement powers.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

That's not my question. My question is why the views of those Canadians who feel that SMS is the wrong approach are not reflected in the report.