Transport Committee on April 3rd, 2008

[Paul Miller]

Yes. It works in two different ways, but in Canada, where we do what we call a certified car inspection, it's based on a plan that we've submitted to Transport Canada, which they approve. We say this train will get inspected by certified car inspectors at such and such a location. Then we have a system of wayside inspection equipment spaced across our network to measure wheel gauges; out of ground wheels; hot boxes; hot wheels and cold wheels, which are an indication of brake problems. That's something we've been investing in very heavily over the past few years.

[John Maloney, Liberal, Welland, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I'm not sure if there's more time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

There is no time, I'm sorry.

Monsieur André, who is sharing his time with Monsieur Laframboise, five minutes.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I still don't agree with the Conservatives, far from it. However, when Mr. Watson talked about the classification suggested by Mr. Lewis, that is to say that, on a scale of 0 to 5, CN ranks between 1 and 2, you immediately challenge the idea. That's what hurts me. We've been analyzing safety problems for a number of months. Witnesses confirm the gist of the report. I think it's really unfortunate, when CN probably hired you as chief safety officer—you took up your duties quite recently, in April 2007—because it too had observed these problems, to hear you say today that the safety problems aren't those cited in the report, and that things are going better at CN than one might think.

This situation causes a serious problem for me. The act will be amended, and I wonder whether penalties will have to be increased and the directors and chief security officer made responsible. You don't seem to be aware of the fact that the reports and evidence revealed the safety problem at CN. Today, you should have admitted that the problem exists and have talked to us about the measures you intend to take to solve it, instead of which you denied the problem, while saying that you don't approve of the report's recommendations.

Is there or is there not a safety problem at CN, Mr. Miller?

[Paul Miller]

Sir, as I said in my opening remarks, any single accident, regardless of cause, is a problem. Safety is an issue for us. I think it's an issue that we take very seriously in the industry.

If we look to results and compare ourselves with our peers, the railroads in Canada are generally safer than the railroads in the U.S. I think people should take some pride in that here in Canada.

Do we have a distance, a considerable distance, to go in our journey of changing our culture, including our management culture, in safety? Yes, I've said that as well.

But as Mr. Lewis said, not everyone is going to be happy with everything we say in the report, and we took a little bit of exception to how he characterized where we were in terms of our safety culture. That's not to say there are no problems at CN; there are problems that we work on every day. I'm aware of them because of course I hear about every accident, every derailment, we have. I take them very personally and seriously. I attend many of them.

I certainly don't intend to appear here before you to say, no, there are no problems. Every derailment, every accident, and every incident we have is a problem that we're working on.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

I nevertheless asked you whether or not there was a safety problem at CN.

[Paul Miller]

There's improving trends in personal injuries and there's improving trends on the main tracks; we continue to work on it, sir.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Jean is next.

[Paul Miller]

One accident is a problem.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We on this side—the government side—would agree with you: one accident is a problem.

I have some questions that relate particularly to today and some questions that I would like to ask in relation to some other issues.

First, you mentioned you had recommendations in addition to what has come forward, and then you came back to admit that there were possibly only two. As a committee we would like you to provide us with all the recommendations, whether there are two or more than two, that you would suggest beyond the scope of this. Could you do so in writing?

[Paul Miller]

Certainly.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

The second question is not related to safety but to some issues that are floating around this particular place. Have any studies been done on the cost of putting GPS locators on each and every car and on the timeframe of the implementation of that? I'm not looking for that today, Mr. Miller, but I'm looking for it in writing as well, please—GPS locators on cars.

Third, does CN have any plans to destroy any hopper cars? I would like to have that response in writing as well. I don't know why, sir, but I've heard from a couple of members here in the last few days that there's some type of push by CN to destroy hopper cars, and I'm concerned with that. I would like that response in writing as well.

In terms of what's going on today, I want to talk a little bit about safety culture. I agree with Mr. Bell on this. I would suggest that CN look at some other examples around this country of a real safety culture. In particular, in my constituency of Fort McMurray—Athabasca, in northern Alberta, safety is a culture. It's a culture in the community; it's a culture at the Syncrude and Suncor plant sites in particular. It is a way of life there, and it certainly is far beyond what I see CN doing. I've lived there most of my life. They do have a safety culture and they live it every day. You can see it in everything they do.

Indeed, I'm wondering.... In your report, the closing submissions on page 3 say:

One of the key elements of CN's Integrated Safety Plan is the existence and implementation of effective Emergency Response Plans (ERPs).

You go on to say, and I quote:

The new ERP is designed to promote effective interaction with first responders, such as fire fighters, police, and government agencies at all levels.

That sounds great until a person realizes that you must have specific training—which is not available at just about any of those places across Canada on most levels—for chemical spills and emergency response teams. What does CN have in place, or what are CN's plans in relation to emergency response teams that work for CN and can go out to a site such as Wabamun or B.C. where there's been a spill that the local representatives do not have the training to take care of?

[Paul Miller]

Since Wabamun, frankly, we have put in place a network of dangerous goods officers located across the system. These are railway tank car and railway hazardous commodity specialists who are also trained in incident command and unified command theory so that they can integrate with local emergency responders.

We work with the Canadian Chemical Producers Association on a program called TransCare that we use to meet with and to provide training to local fire departments--in particular, volunteer fire departments--who often, as you say, are hard pressed to get this type of training. We've got an outreach program under way in British Columbia as a pilot program to bring local emergency folks in for additional training in emergency response and in dealing with chemical emergencies.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

I'm sorry to interrupt, but I'm worried about time because our chair keeps us close.

Am I to understand that CN has no first level of response, an emergency response team that goes out to a site immediately upon some accident happening?

[Paul Miller]

Yes, sir, we do.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Is it a supervisor or a team?

[Paul Miller]

It is a dangerous goods officer. Mechanical supervisors are what we call dangerous goods responders; they don't have as high a level of training as the dangerous goods officer, but they are trained in the basics.

As well, any time a hazardous commodity is involved, we activate an emergency response assistance plan. We bring the shipper, for example, or contractors with whom we've already established relationships to deal with that.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Can you provide us with information on their particular training and the response time? I'm sure you have set response times within which you expect these people to be on site. That's not for today, but certainly in writing I would appreciate receiving some semblance of their background and training, as well as their specialties on these chemicals in particular.

[Paul Miller]

Certainly.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Finally, the main track accidents are up. There were 76 enforcement orders placed against CN by this government over the past couple of years, and certainly a minister's order and some other initiatives that we've taken, because safety is a concern to Canadians and we're going to take steps to make sure it's better. Main track accidents are up, and, as you mentioned, it has to do primarily with the wheels and the track, which is CN's responsibility. It certainly seems to indicate to me that where the government is doing well, we can't do any better unless we take more enforcement proceedings.

What is CN doing to make sure this equipment is fixed, so we don't have these 78 or 79 accidents, as we did last year on main track derailments?

[Paul Miller]

The main way we get at the main track issues, sir, is with investment and technology. Investment is replacing rail, acquiring new freight cars, and refurbishing freight cars. Technology is wayside inspection systems that bring together a host of information about the cars that pass by at 50 miles per hour.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Has anything changed in the last year, or since you've been appointed, in relation to this?

[Paul Miller]

Yes, additional wayside inspection stations and additional rail flaw detection. We were already exceeding the regulatory minimum by a substantial amount and we're doing more.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Can you provide us with specifics on that as well and the change in culture in the last year?

[Paul Miller]

Certainly.