Evidence of meeting #23 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was waters.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

David Marit  President, Saskatchewan Association of Rural Municipalities, Federation of Canadian Municipalities
Don Johnson  President, Alberta Association of Municipal Districts and Counties, Federation of Canadian Municipalities
Susan Irwin  Senior Policy and Research Analyst, Federation of Canadian Municipalities

11:50 a.m.

President, Alberta Association of Municipal Districts and Counties, Federation of Canadian Municipalities

Don Johnson

They required a fish rest stop on the other side of the two culverts because the fish would be sufficiently tired from going through the culvert that they would need a place to rest up before they went further. In order to do that, they had to move some riparian area, which was a bunch of willows that were well established in this area. So they agreed and they moved the willows and all the riparian area died off. There are no fish in the stream, and it's an intermittent stream for three months of the year.

Those are the kinds of examples, and those are specific examples. The regulations might have been followed, but the application wasn't practical, from a point of view--

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

That's helpful for us, to bring it to the level that I think a lot of people here can appreciate.

David.

11:50 a.m.

President, Saskatchewan Association of Rural Municipalities, Federation of Canadian Municipalities

David Marit

Mr. Chairman, just to add to that, it's not that we've ever said that navigable waters doesn't have a role to play. We've never ever said that. Our discussion, for the sake of argument, is where do they have that role to play? Do they have a role to play on a stream that only flows for three months of the year? We don't think they do. There is an agency that looks after that, and it's called the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, and they look after it very, very well. They have come a long way as far as dealing with municipalities goes too. To us, navigable waters has a role to play, but it's not in the realm of a waterway that only flows for three months. It's just not their place.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you.

I was going to suggest you might have had that project completed sooner, but you had to get an environmental approval for the telephone poles they would have to bring--

11:50 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

11:50 a.m.

President, Saskatchewan Association of Rural Municipalities, Federation of Canadian Municipalities

David Marit

They did have to put signs upstream and downstream to let them know.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

I'm sure they thought of a cell phone at first, but then how long would that stay there?

Mr. Fast.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

I'd love to continue with the examples that our witnesses have been sharing with us. It brings to mind the maxim, “the law is an ass”.

The purpose of reviewing this is to make sure the law reflects common sense. Certainly it has a role to play, a very important role, but we also want to make sure it meets the needs of Canadians.

I'm going to start by trying to confirm the views that you represent, Mr. Johnson. You're here representing the Alberta Association of Municipal Districts and Counties. The views you are expressing are actually those of that organization. Is that true?

11:50 a.m.

President, Alberta Association of Municipal Districts and Counties, Federation of Canadian Municipalities

Don Johnson

That's true.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

And you're not specifically representing the FCM?

11:50 a.m.

President, Alberta Association of Municipal Districts and Counties, Federation of Canadian Municipalities

Don Johnson

Yes, I am.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

You are.

11:55 a.m.

President, Alberta Association of Municipal Districts and Counties, Federation of Canadian Municipalities

Don Johnson

I'm chair of the rural forum of the FCM.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

All right, but the presentation you've made today hasn't actually been reviewed by the FCM board as a whole. Is that correct?

11:55 a.m.

President, Alberta Association of Municipal Districts and Counties, Federation of Canadian Municipalities

Don Johnson

The resolution has been reviewed and passed. They authorized us to gather what information we could, and we've done that. It's included in our recommendations. We've had this discussion around the executive table with FCM, of which I am a part, as the chair of the rural forum. So we have full support—Susan can verify that—for what we're doing and what we're presenting today.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

Ms. Irwin, you're here representing the FCM as well?

April 29th, 2008 / 11:55 a.m.

Susan Irwin Senior Policy and Research Analyst, Federation of Canadian Municipalities

Yes, I am.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

All right. I might want to hear from you a little later.

11:55 a.m.

Senior Policy and Research Analyst, Federation of Canadian Municipalities

Susan Irwin

The submission that you received includes everything that has been approved by the full board. The other recommendations and information that is being provided by Mr. Johnson and Mr. Marit has been discussed by the executive committee, which also represents the entire board. If we don't have time to present things to a board meeting, our executive committee can make a decision on behalf of the entire board. Our board is made up of 75 members across Canada, so we only get together a few times a year. The executive committee has looked at this, discussed it, and supported it.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

For the most part, what you're telling us today makes a lot of sense. I'm not sure I share your views regarding the monetary penalties and fines.

11:55 a.m.

President, Alberta Association of Municipal Districts and Counties, Federation of Canadian Municipalities

Don Johnson

That's fair.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

I share Mr. Bell's view that they have a function to play as a moderate penalty system, and they can probably be useful to make sure we get compliance.

You focus most of your discussion on the definition of navigable waters. I'd like to go to recommendation number two in the FCM's submission—a request that the definition of work be amended to exclude minor works. Could I get you to expand on what you mean by minor works? Could you also provide us with some examples of situations where, using the current definition, minor works have been treated in a way that has resulted in substantial delays and increases in cost?

11:55 a.m.

President, Alberta Association of Municipal Districts and Counties, Federation of Canadian Municipalities

Don Johnson

We added named works that fall under the mandate and control of the act. These include bridges, booms, dams, causeways, wharves, docks, and piers. In fact, no type of work has ever been removed from the act, only added. That's why we were suggesting that there needs to be some clarity in this matter.

In respect of minor works, we're talking about bridgeworks over canals, intermittent streams. That's where we've received most of the challenges—intermittent streams in the spring where you get runoff and you need to put a new culvert in. Maybe you had a 40-inch culvert, but all of a sudden they want one that's large enough for a canoeist to go through sitting upright. Does that really make sense when you have an intermittent stream and you haven't ever had a canoeist on that stream?

These are the kinds of things we're talking about—bridgeworks over small intermittent streams, over canals, that type of thing.

In the municipal district of Taber where I sit on council in southern Alberta, we had the McLean Bridge replacement about six or seven years ago. In fact, navigable waters was one of the easiest groups to deal with. That was a major bridge structure. There were some major environmental studies done, and we met all of the requirements. It went relatively smoothly and navigable waters, of all the groups that we dealt with, was the least intrusive.

We had bigger problems with Alberta Environment. We had to feed the deer. We have two types of deer: whitetails and mulies. We also had to deal with leopard frogs, because they cross the road. So we needed a tunnel to accommodate the leopard frogs. That was interesting—not that you want to see frogs squished on the road. Alberta Transportation, Saskatchewan Department of Highways, Manitoba, and B.C.—they'll talk about this, I'm sure, in their discussions about minor works of this type.

I don't know if that answers your question.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

To a degree, you provided us with your fairly expansive proposed definition of navigable waterways. You didn't provide us with a definition for minor works, and that's why I'm asking the question.

11:55 a.m.

President, Alberta Association of Municipal Districts and Counties, Federation of Canadian Municipalities

Don Johnson

That's a fair comment.