Evidence of meeting #25 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was works.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ron Middleton  Director, Environmental Management Services, Ministry of Transportation, Government of Alberta

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair (Mr. Mervin Tweed (Brandon—Souris, CPC)) Conservative Merv Tweed

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to meeting 25 of the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities.

The order of the day, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), is a study of the current status of navigation protection of the Canadian waterways, including their governance and use, and the operation of the current Navigable Waters Protection Act.

Joining us today is Mr. Ron Middleton, the director of environmental management services for the Ministry of Transportation in Alberta.

Just for the committee's understanding, Alberta is here today representing not only themselves, but B.C., Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland and Labrador, the Yukon, and the Northwest Territories. We have distributed the letter the provinces have sent to the committee in support of the presentation, just so that you're aware. It was distributed by e-mail yesterday. If you have it, then you'll know who Mr. Middleton is representing and speaking for.

I'm sure you've been made aware of all the rules and regulations. It's basically a seven- to ten-minute presentation, and then members will have questions.

Mr. Middleton.

11:10 a.m.

Ron Middleton Director, Environmental Management Services, Ministry of Transportation, Government of Alberta

Thank you.

We really appreciate the opportunity to speak to this. I think you've all discovered that this act is one that many of us involved in the implementation of infrastructure projects have found problematic over the years; hence the high degree of agreement that changes are required. We are all largely on the same side. The differences are probably more of degree than substance.

We agree with Transport Canada that a total rewrite of the act is something that is well worth doing, but we also are rather desperate to see some quick fixes if these are in fact possible. There's a lot of work under way, and this particular act is resulting in significant delays in important infrastructure projects right now. I'm sure you've heard that from other witnesses.

We believe the objective of any amendments you undertake should be to eliminate the need for approvals where no significant public good is being achieved. This should allow Transport Canada to speed up the processing of projects that warrant its attention and undertake activities that are of benefit. This would also remove the automatic triggering of environmental assessment and consultation requirements that further delay the approval process.

We are, both provincially and nationally, working with Transport Canada on cooperative ventures to improve the approvals processes within the existing act. However, we believe significant change is needed to the act; only so much can be achieved through goodwill and cooperation.

Specifically, we are looking for an improvement in the timeliness of approvals, the application of the act to areas where it does produce some good, a reasonable accommodation of navigation, and regulation of activities where they are warranted, not where they are not.

I'm skipping over the introductory material here to get to the meat of the matter in an effort to improve the timeliness of this. I'm going to cut to the chase here and talk about the recommended changes or the kinds of changes we would like to see in the act.

The first is the inclusion of a definition of “navigable waters”. I've provided some handouts here. Number one is the definition as it exists in the act. As you can see, it provides virtually nothing by way of guidance to anybody. We believe a clear definition, or at least a clear statement of intention of what the act is meant to regulate, should reduce the ambiguity and allow us to skip the first of the approvals process steps, that of determining whether the act applies.

We believe this can be done in any number of ways. We provide some examples. You can do it by reference to the purpose of the navigation, the type of vessel that you wish to accommodate, the physical characteristics of the channel, the actual use for navigation, or some combination of these. I provide some examples in my brief.

At a minimum, we believe, the changes should eliminate the need for a project proponent to first ask Transport Canada if the act applies to a given stream, and, only after that determination is made, submit an application, recognizing that each of these steps--in our recent experience--will take at least six months.

As an example, a few years ago Alberta undertook a little project to determine whether in fact it would be possible to look at all the waterways in the province. We talked to the canoeing guides for the province. We talked to all the boating clubs. We took over 4,000 previous determinations of navigability that Transport Canada had made on streams in the province. We looked at the natural characteristics of the streams. Using those, we set up some objective criteria, classified all the streams in Alberta, and in fact produced a map of navigable waters. Now, this map of course at the present time has no status, as it were, but it certainly demonstrates that it is quite feasible to do this. I did this with one staff member working part-time for about a year.

Second, we agree with Transport Canada on amending the definition of “work” to allow the exclusion of minor works and works that have little or no impact to navigation. That's a very simple change, and we agree with that one. As to what kinds of works those might entail, that could be worked out through regulation and discussion.

One that I don't believe Transport Canada has put before you relates to the second figure I have provided you, and that relates to the act itself that specifies start times and completion times for works approved under the act. We're not likely to see that sort of thing in legislation nowadays, as you don't usually enshrine those kinds of things in the act, and it is problematic for us, particularly the start date. We are attempting to tender projects well in advance of six months of the start of a project. Sometimes due to project delays we must put things off. We like to put things on the shelf. We have no difficulty with putting timelines within an approval, but having these rigid dates enshrined in the act itself we think is unproductive.

We agree with Transport Canada's suggestion to remove the four named works, and this is in figure 3 showing the section of the act that's involved. Naming these works requires them to go through an extensive approval process that may not be required. I noted some discussion of this in previous transcripts, and I can certainly provide examples of where this may apply, if the committee so wishes later on.

Next, we would like to see approval renewals become automatic unless there is a reason to do otherwise. Again, every time a decision has to be made, that adds work to Transport Canada's staff, requires another decision, and by and large is not necessary. So that might require an amendment to subsection 7(2), but it also might involve subsections 11(1) and 11(2), where renewals are mentioned.

Next is a significant one that relates to the grandfathering of projects. For much of the 20th century the Navigable Waters Protection Act was only applied to major waterways and major projects across this country. Both the federal and provincial governments assumed that was the intent of the act, and that's how it was applied. As a result, very few approvals were issued for about 100 years. As a result, many of the projects out there are considered unlawful. That means that before you can even do routine maintenance you must apply for an approval, and they must be given post facto approval, which requires the same process as an initial approval--again, a very long and cumbersome process just to do routine maintenance on an existing structure that's been there for many years.

There already is a grandfathering clause in the act, and we propose to modify that by effectively grandfathering every project that was built prior to 1995. We picked that date largely because that was the date Transport Canada, or its predecessors in the administration of the act, became much more active in looking at new projects, and I believe that related to the Oldman River Dam court case.

The other one we certainly agree on--and these are figures 6 and 7 in the deck I provided you--is that the advertising requirements in the act are outmoded and largely ineffective. They add time. They ask you to file plans and advertisements in places where nobody ever looks. Again, this is not the sort of thing I would expect to be enshrined in an act today. It can be dealt with in regulation and should be dealt with on a project-by-project basis. It may well be the case that individual notification of affected landowners in some cases may be more effective than advertising in the Canada Gazette.

The next one we would suggest, and this is relating to figure 8, is removing the phrase “in the opinion of the Minister” from subsection 10(1). This is the one that says “any lawful work may be rebuilt or repaired if, in the opinion of the Minister, interference with navigation is not increased...”.

Now, in our view, the requirement for that “in the opinion of the Minister” means that you must obtain separate approval even for routine maintenance and repair. Again, that's another decision that has to be made. Routine maintenance and repair is only intended to return the structure to its existing state, not to modify it. That's dealt with elsewhere in the act.

I would like to perhaps provide you with some comfort, if you believe we are going too far in trying to deregulate certain activities, by pointing out that under subsection 10(4)—and this is figure 9 in your deck, the last one—the minister, where he has seen that a structure is causing an impediment to navigation, may identify that. At the time when it comes up for repair or reconstruction, he may at that point require you to apply as if it were a new project and make whatever conditions are required at that time. That's similar to an arrangement we have with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans--Fisheries and Oceans Canada. Culverts that were built in the old days, when we didn't worry much about fish passage, we have identified between us, and when they come up for repair or replacement we are dealing with passage issues at that time.

The second-last one is that Transport Canada has proposed amending the act to include inspection powers for their officers. Quite frankly, it never occurred to us that they didn't have those powers, and we have no objections to their having them. We cooperate with all officials of all regulatory agencies when they show up on our sites.

And the last one is that Transport Canada has recommended an increase in the maximum fines under the act. Frankly, we believe this to be unnecessary at this time. It's not anything we feel strongly about, because we don't propose to get on the wrong side of the act, but we would point out that they do have, under the existing act, the authority to order you to remove structures that you install unlawfully, and that's a pretty potent deterrent in itself.

I think there are a number of issues regarding what constitutes infractions under the act, as well as the level of fines and responsibilities that should probably be addressed in a thorough rewrite of the act.

I'll leave it there. Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you very much.

Mr. Volpe.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Mr. Middleton, thank you very much. I thought your presentation was quite thorough. In fact, I had occasion to read it prior to your giving it. It's very exact, detailed, and doesn't embellish anything.

I gather this reflects the work you've already accomplished with the provincial authorities with which you had to consult. But tell me what the reaction of Transport Canada has been so far.

11:25 a.m.

Director, Environmental Management Services, Ministry of Transportation, Government of Alberta

Ron Middleton

I think we're largely on side with Transport Canada. We shared this brief, as we've prepared it with our regional and federal counterparts. I know Mr. Osbaldeston is in the room, and he can attest to the fact that, again, it may be a matter of degree rather than principle that we are discussing here.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

So you don't anticipate from them any push-back on any of the recommendations you are making?

11:25 a.m.

Director, Environmental Management Services, Ministry of Transportation, Government of Alberta

Ron Middleton

I'm hoping not.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

I'm trying to get a sense of the kind of give and take in the consultation that's taken place. This committee has been asked to look at the act with the purpose of making recommendations that could be very quickly implemented. It would be useful to get a sense of just how far the consultation has already taken place with another order or level of government that also has to deal with this.

11:25 a.m.

Director, Environmental Management Services, Ministry of Transportation, Government of Alberta

Ron Middleton

Yes, I agree. They have seen it. I don't think there's anything in principle we object to. The biggest issue will likely be the one of definition. As I said, we've given out lots of options here. Transport Canada has asked you to provide a latitude in definition to exclude minor waterways. We certainly don't object to that. We would ask that you perhaps consider going a little farther.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

In what sense, then?

11:25 a.m.

Director, Environmental Management Services, Ministry of Transportation, Government of Alberta

Ron Middleton

I think in a clear statement of the nature of navigation that we are wishing to protect. It's my understanding that it may not be, even as it sits in law, regarded equally across the province. In one of the landmark cases that I have read, the Coleman decision, it suggests that, for example, in Quebec, navigability is intended as something related to commerce, not just recreation.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

In other provinces, like my own, Ontario, it does include others.

11:25 a.m.

Director, Environmental Management Services, Ministry of Transportation, Government of Alberta

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

So a more restrictive definition would probably make it easier for the federal government to monitor its own legislation.

11:25 a.m.

Director, Environmental Management Services, Ministry of Transportation, Government of Alberta

Ron Middleton

Quite frankly, our biggest issue is that of clarity. We don't think there's a lot of value in attempting to regulate minor activities, or to monitor streams that have no prospect of being used for navigation. I think Transport Canada has said as much; hence their wish to protect navigation, not navigability.

In the short term, if you could just remove the ambiguity, such that we could eliminate that step, it would provide us with some immediate relief, even if you wished to be very conservative in your definition at this time.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

I wonder, then, whether you had an opportunity in the course of your consultation to think about some specific items. You indicated that in Quebec you're talking about navigation related to commerce, and in other places that related to pleasure as well; but I'm thinking in terms of the environmental issues associated with that as well--for example, wetlands, marshlands, etc., where there's a combination of navigation for pleasure and for safeguarding an environmental set of circumstances.

Do you see your recommendations and this legislation, or the proposed changes to the legislation, as impacting on other departments of other governments? Natural Resources Canada, for example, comes to mind, and ministries of environment in various provinces. Do you see a correlation with or an impact on them?

11:25 a.m.

Director, Environmental Management Services, Ministry of Transportation, Government of Alberta

Ron Middleton

Only in terms of helping to streamline processes. Quite frankly, we have a great deal of redundancy in our legislation right now. Any time I wish to do anything in any stream, it requires a minimum of four approvals—two federal and two provincial. The Fisheries Act triggers the exact same CEAA requirements as the Navigable Waters Protection Act. Sometimes their undertakings are coordinated, sometimes not. But the same things are being looked at. Similarly, there is overlap between the provincial environmental water act approvals as well as our public lands act approvals.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Perhaps as a last reflection, as I looked through this I kept searching for some sort of phrase that would have been connected with what you just said; that is, the moment the Navigable Waters Protection Act is triggered, is there a mechanism in your mind that should also immediately trigger the example you gave about the Fisheries Act as well, so that you could have two things running concurrently in the event that one would trigger the other, subsequent to a particular action?

11:30 a.m.

Director, Environmental Management Services, Ministry of Transportation, Government of Alberta

Ron Middleton

I'm not sure that would be necessary. As it stands, by practice, we apply for all regulatory approvals as soon as we can in the process. I can't imagine circumstances where we are crossing a navigable water and the Fisheries Act would not be invoked, as that automatically triggers the approval process. We certainly don't object to, and indeed encourage, Transport Canada and DFO to interact on these matters.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Thank you, Mr. Middleton.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Monsieur Laframboise.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Middleton.

Before stepping into the federal political arena, I was chairman of l'Union des municipalités du Québec. I wish that people who read us or listen to us do not get the impression that we intend to cancel any type of regulation on waterways. As a person responsible for the construction and maintenance of Alberta's networks, you have to give municipalities your approval for any construction work they undertake on the waterways. Even though the legislation would not apply to waterways anymore, it does not mean that citizens and municipalities would be able to built on or develop along waterways without any approval. Some regulations apply in Alberta, and in Quebec also.

I would like you to tell us what municipalities must do presently before undertaking some construction work. Do they have to submit their project to you? What would happen if the legislation on minor waterways did not apply anymore, if we would succeed in amending the act? Provincial environmental standards would still have to be complied with.

11:30 a.m.

Director, Environmental Management Services, Ministry of Transportation, Government of Alberta

Ron Middleton

Thank you. I think I got the gist of that.

A municipality is bound by the same regulation as we are as a province, and probably a few levels more.

As I mentioned before, when a municipality--or an individual, as far as that goes--wishes to develop in a waterway or build a bridge across a waterway, for example, they still have to apply under the Navigable Waters Protection Act to the extent that it applies. And we're talking about limiting that, certainly. They must apply for the federal Fisheries Act, and in Alberta they must apply under the Water Act as well as the Public Lands Act. Each one of those has regard for public safety and environmental protection.

Furthermore, as a transport agency, we in Alberta—and I can't speak for all provinces—provide the funding to municipalities for bridges and many other municipal works. When we provide that funding we require them to adhere to the same standards we use in our own construction. We do have standards regarding clearances as they relate to waterways. That's why, in part, a lot of this becomes somewhat redundant or unnecessary, because if we meet our flood clearance requirements nowadays, we are almost certainly accommodating the navigation that might occur on any given stream.

Does that give you enough?

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Yes. You talked about changing the definition. We all know that amendments are necessary. It seems to me that we should proceed as soon as possible. In your presentation, you offer several options, including the following definitions:

[...] waterways used for commerce (transport of goods, commercial fishing); waterways that can be reliably navigated by vessels with a draught of one metre; waterways of minimum width of five metres and average depth greater than half a metre at mean annual flow;

Among these definitions, do you favour one in particular or do you intend to let Governement or our committee do their own analysis?

11:35 a.m.

Director, Environmental Management Services, Ministry of Transportation, Government of Alberta

Ron Middleton

I probably should not presume to tell the Parliament of Canada what it wishes to do with its act and what it wishes to protect; hence the options that I provide.

From the perspective of ease of implementation--and perhaps this may be, by rights, a short-term fix--one that speaks to the physical characteristics of the waterways is probably the easiest to implement. That is certainly what we used in our trial project in Alberta, where we looked at the width of channel, the depth of water at certain flow frequencies, and the slope of the channel--that sort of thing. And those are the kinds of definitions that Transport Canada is using in defining minor waterways.

So in the short term, I think that is probably the easiest and the most effective way to go. If you were considering a rewrite of the entire act, I would suggest it might be worth while to have a more philosophical discussion as to exactly what we are trying to protect here, and a view as to what is best managed and regulated at the federal level versus what can be dealt with under existing legislation within the provinces.