Transport Committee on May 6th, 2008

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman,.

Thank you, Mr. Middleton, for coming out.

I apologize for my voice. If I quit, my colleague will take over for me.

Clearly, the amendments we're looking at have a significant impact in rural Canada. I'm from Ontario, and everyone who comes before us talks about the delays, the costs, and the effect on safety. I think you mentioned those also.

I was going to follow up on a question of one of my colleagues, where you developed the map you had. Could you table it for our committee to have as an example for consideration?

[Ron Middleton]

I certainly could do that. As well, I have a PowerPoint presentation that shows the criteria used. That might be helpful. I'll provide it to the clerk.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

I think that might be helpful.

You talk about the unlawful works that are out there. I'm not so sure we know how many of them there are, but when you come across these and consider how we're going to deal with them, is it strictly going to be around navigable issues, or is there going to be a sort of engineering component of it? Do they get picked up only when something is going to happen in terms of a change or a rebuild?

[Ron Middleton]

That's how it's happening now. There have been thoughts in the past of just submitting all the existing ones out there for approval, so that we bring everything up to date. That would bring the entire process, of course, to a grinding halt. Transport Canada could not possibly deal with all of those at once.

In fact, we've been working with them on a case-by-case basis as they have come up for repair, or rebuild, if that is the case: making them lawful and then proceeding with the repairs.

The problem with that, of course, is that any time a municipality or we wish to in theory, say, replace a guard rail on a bridge or something like that, it may require a multi-month or year delay before we are allowed to do that kind of repair, and there may be cases of public safety in the meantime.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

I want to go back to an earlier discussion on number 10. I don't know how big a priority this one is, in terms of the fines. Actually you recommend that we aren't making it a priority because it's a maximum of $5,000 now. I think we've heard a number of times that it's—just what you said—too small because it's just part of business.

My understanding of the act is that there's no cost-recovery capability within the existing act. I may be reading that wrong, but I'd like clarification on that. I think part of that has to be that we can't always go back to the public for some of these penalties.

[Ron Middleton]

I may be mistaken, but it was always my belief that if you were ordered to tear something down and refused, and Transport Canada demolished it, it could recover that cost. If that's not the case, that's something I would certainly support.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

I'll just wrap up. I think I'll just leave it at that, and I'll turn it over to my colleague. Thank you.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thanks very much for coming today. I appreciate it.

Indeed, it appears we have the overwhelming support of most of the provinces and territories in relation to our study of this act. Not only Alberta, but the Yukon, British Columbia, Manitoba, Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia, Northwest Territories, Ontario, and Saskatchewan, at this stage, have all given support to you in relation to your presentation. Is that correct?

[Ron Middleton]

Correct.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Wow. I didn't know those orders of government could get together in all—

[Ron Middleton]

Well, in fact we were fortunate, in that there was a Transportation Association of Canada meeting here in Ottawa just a few weeks ago, and that provided the opportunity for all these agencies to get together and to vet the proposition we put on the table. In fact the support was unanimous. I don't think it's a major issue for P.E.I., and Quebec decided to approach the federal government in its own fashion and not as part of a joint submission.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Excellent. I was at that meeting, and I have to tell you I was impressed with the background conversations in relation to this particular piece of legislation. There seems to be an overwhelming support for this change that the government is doing.

Have there been any studies in relation to either the cost of the current situation or the timeframe allocated? I know Transport Canada indicated there is an eleven-month delay or an eleven-month average in some of these applications as a result of this act. Has there been any study on what the cost is to taxpayers? Ultimately, that's who pays the final bill. It must be in the billions of dollars.

[Ron Middleton]

I'm sure it is, but no, I don't have real numbers on that. You know the kinds of construction inflation costs we've been having, particularly in Alberta, in recent years. A delay of six months could easily add 20% to the cost of a project.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Well, that's my next question. The Athabasca Bridge in Fort McMurray, my constituency, is a five-lane bridge that we've been waiting for. I think the first bridge was put up somewhere around 1963; the second bridge was put up about 1970 or 1972; and now we need to replace those bridges. Indeed, the season to build is somewhere in the neighbourhood of five months a year. Now we have backlogs sometimes of six or seven hours for people to get home from work because there's been an accident or whatever the case may be.

My understanding is that this particular piece of legislation is one of the major holdups in relation to that bridge being approved and actually going ahead. Is that correct?

[Ron Middleton]

It's certainly one of the holdups. To be fair, it wasn't the only one.

[An hon. member]

It's the only one in his riding.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

In my riding, but 6% of the gross domestic product of the country, I might add.

[An hon. member]

I've got 40% in mine.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Indeed.

Thank you very much for your time today, sir. Is there anything else you'd like to put forward as a recommendation for this committee to deal with on this particular act?

[Ron Middleton]

No. I would just like to emphasize that any relief we can get in short order would be greatly appreciated.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Ms. Hall Findlay.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you.

My own welcome to you, and thank you for being here.

I actually have a follow-up question, out of curiosity. I wanted to ask about the cost savings and whether anybody has done a full analysis of the situation we have now, not just the delays but the overall cost of having to comply with this and what the savings might be.

Given the repeated discussions we're having, and should be having more of, on infrastructure and infrastructure needs and the costs at the different levels of government, I was wondering if there was any analysis of the cost savings these measures might see--or conversely, the cost of having to comply so far.

The other question is I was actually curious if this is only one of a number of acts that have caused problems for the bridge in Fort McMurray. Could you just shed some light on the other main challenges?

[Ron Middleton]

I can.

To answer your first question, I wish I could give you comprehensive numbers. I cannot. This sort of thing is difficult to sort out. In my position, I am often asked by my engineering friends how much all of this environmental and regulatory stuff is costing us. It's difficult to answer that question. In most cases, accommodating navigation is not a problem. It automatically happens. We are trying to accommodate flood flows and similar circumstances, and engineers are personally liable for any public hazards they create. So it's not as if these things would be totally ignored if there were no act.

What was the second question?

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

I asked whether this act was only one of many that caused problems for the bridge at Fort McMurray.

[Ron Middleton]

I would suggest that Transport Canada and all provincial and federal government agencies are bound up. One of the other issues in Fort McMurray was that of aboriginal consultation. First nations consultation is a shifting legal ground. Nobody is quite sure what needs to be done. As a result, I think we had three or four separate consultations on the same project.