Transport Committee on June 3rd, 2008

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

I understand that this is a specific case. Perhaps we could meet afterward so that you can give me an explanation of the mail I received on the subject.

I have another question. Mr. Grégoire sent us a letter on April 28, discussing the exemptions already applied to minor navigable waterways. He provides a certain description of them. This boils down to the fact that a waterway cannot be used for proper navigation in various cases. It seems that this is an exception, and he hopes that it will be entrenched in an act that clarifies it precisely.

In cases where there is already an exemption or where no one can navigate on the waterway, does anyone verify the effect of that ban with Fisheries and Oceans Canada? A navigation ban could have an impact on the run of certain species of fish. Is that automatically checked by Fisheries and Oceans Canada? Is it Transport Canada instead that receives the work installation request and asks Fisheries and Oceans to check that aspect?

[Shirley Anne Scharf]

If I've correctly understood, you're asking me whether, when we receive a request, we have to establish whether Fisheries and Oceans' approval must be obtained.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Yes.

[Shirley Anne Scharf]

It's Keith or other individuals in the region who enforce the act who are responsible for that. If the project requires it, we have an approval, but I'm not sure about that.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

You currently apply the exemptions yourselves. You ensure that there are no obstacles to navigation, but you nevertheless check with Fisheries and Oceans to see if it objects to a project.

If minor waterways were excluded from your approval under an act, would that prevent any checking by the departments?

[Shirley Anne Scharf]

Keith could answer that.

[Keith Grady]

We will continue to have an obligation to assess every project we consider for funding unless it is defined as an exclusion under CEAA, the exclusion list regulations. The minor works provisions being proposed under the NWPA are not part of the exclusion list regulations.

What we will be able to do in the case that you've given is take the information Transport Canada has developed for that type of minor work and the design criteria they've identified as being appropriate to that type of project, and if the proponent meets those design criteria, the project would not be environmentally problematic from a navigational point of view. We will build those design criteria into our EA approval. That will deal with the navigational considerations. We will still need to carry out our assessment with respect to potential impacts on fish or other environmental factors as the act requires.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

In the case of private bills not funded by the government, if they concern a minor waterway, will you nevertheless submit the project to Fisheries and Oceans, or will no checks be done?

[Shirley Anne Scharf]

I'm going to ask the others to answer that question because I don't enforce private bills. I think that's another approval—

[David Osbaldeston]

Whenever any project goes in or around water the proponent must comply with a number of legal requirements. In this particular case, because it is determined to be a minor waterway, the Navigable Waters Protection Act would not apply. It would not forgo the proponent's lawful requirement to make application and have consideration done under the Fisheries Act with respect to potential fishery habitat limitations and constraints as well as other provincial and municipal reviews conducted for an environmental purpose.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

In that case, does it know that it must request authorization from the Department of Transport and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, or does it make one request in one place only?

[David Osbaldeston]

I would like to say they can do that in one place only, but as a bureaucrat I could never assure that. It is up to the proponent. Much as when building a house, the onus is on the proponent to find out all the permits and other requirements needed to complete the job and have it inspected and approved.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

It's really a grey area that must be taken into consideration in the assessment of—

[Yves Leboeuf]

That's one of the areas where our agency will play a coordination role with the various departments in different regions, particularly Quebec, where a lot of coordination work has been done between the various federal departments and agencies under our agency's leadership. That now enables proponents to contact our agency directly, where there is doubt, and to obtain assistance and more information on the various federal departments that may be interested in the project. In a case such as this one, we'll act as a single window, to a certain degree.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you very much to our guests today. We appreciate your comments. I know that we have a lot of review ahead of us. Thank you again for attending. We appreciate your time.

For the members of the committee, while our guests are leaving I just want to advise you that your reports and comments are asked to be turned in to Maxime by the end of today. We are anxious to have some form of discussion on Thursday. If we have the materials, I hope we would be able to do that.

The last piece of business is a motion that was brought forward by Mr. Volpe. I know there was some discussion around the committee the other day as to whether the parliamentary secretary, Mr. Jean, had a satisfactory answer to Mr. Volpe's question. If it is satisfactory then we can move forward. If it isn't, we would deal with Mr. Volpe's motion.

Mr. Jean.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

I feel a little pressure now, Mr. Chair. I can't imagine that my answer wouldn't be satisfactory, but certainly Mr. Volpe would be the judge of that.

I want to let him know and the committee know that, first of all, ongoing informal consultations will be completed some time by the end of August. They have been ongoing for a period of time now with Air Canada, WestJet, and ATAC. The airline industry has met with the minister's office and it's ongoing. At this stage, that is the situation.

Mr. Volpe does know some of the complications in relation to this, and quite frankly the four issues we're dealing with in implementing this legislation. But if that's not enough, I have no difficulty with him asking for a letter from the minister indicating whatever he wants to indicate.

I do understand the minister has given a date on which he is available to go over estimates, but there's no harm in asking for a letter at this stage anyway, whether you find my answer satisfactory or not.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Volpe.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

First, let me thank the parliamentary secretary for endeavouring to get the information. I appreciate that the consultations are taking place with the airline industry and their representatives. That's fine. But the items in the legislation really deal with the jurisdictional issues associated with provinces coming onside with the federal legislation as passed in the House.

Unless I missed something, I didn't hear what the stage of consultation was between the federal authority and the provincial authorities in order to make the legislation harmonious in all jurisdictions so that we could get from the airline industry the kind of pricing identification that the consumer constituency wants. Does the parliamentary secretary have an answer to that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Jean.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Certainly, Mr. Volpe, you've hit upon the very crux of the issue. At this stage, this government has been very clear that we're not going to interfere in provincial jurisdiction and we would have to reach an agreement with the provinces in regulating newspapers and advertising within their travel agencies. Indeed, the federal government at this stage can regulate radio and TV ads, as well as airlines generally, but it will take the cooperation of the different provinces.

The one topic you continue to ignore, Mr. Volpe, and I continue to bring up is the issue of web-based advertising and making sure there's a clear and even playing field for the parties that are involved. Web-based advertising, of course, is under the jurisdiction of the country the web server is actually based in. So we have three different levels, and of course it will be impossible to regulate the web base.

Quite frankly, Mr. Volpe, it sounds as though you have more issues than just whether the consultations are ongoing. I would suggest that you just ask for a letter from the minister with the specific things that you want to know.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

On this comment you just made, I don't ignore what you've said. I've actually been quite patient and I've been appreciative of what you've done. But for us, I think, and for me in particular, notwithstanding the complexities leading up to a harmonization of policies across the nation, it's important to know that the consultation process has started; what place it's at; and if there are some obstacles on which it is unreasonable for us to expect satisfaction over the course of the next little while, we would take that into consideration.

But we can't solve a problem, real or imagined, if the minister is not engaged in consultations with the jurisdictions and the relationship that causes that problem. So I think I'm aware of some of the difficulties, but the biggest difficulty is taking that first step, and I didn't hear that the first step was taken.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

If I may clarify, Mr. Chair—

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Very briefly, and then I'm going to Mr. Masse.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

First, the consultations have started with the airline industry, for sure. I'm not sure about the provinces. My understanding from previous discussions is that it had been done and it is ongoing. But it's at the end of the consultation process or very close to that. It's going to be winding up by the end of August.

You know the difficulties already, Mr. Volpe, and quite frankly, from my perspective, I don't know how those difficulties are going to be overcome to allow for a clear and even playing field for all the participants. I don't know how it's going to be done, so somebody with a higher pay grade than mine is going to have to come up with the solution.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

The person with the higher pay grade is coming here, I gather.