Evidence of meeting #15 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ship.
A recording is available from Parliament.
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed
Thank you.
It sounds like your business is a little bit like ours. We never really know the outcome until it's over.
1:05 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
April 30th, 2009 / 1:05 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and through you, to our witnesses.
Mr. Kowalski, what measures do you take to ensure that your vessels are safe?
1:05 p.m.
Wilderness Tours
Our vessels are safe. Right now, for the first time, our rafts are required to be registered with Transport Canada, even though we object to that. With that registration will come inspections.
The nature of our industry is that it's highly specialized, and for the most part, the inspectors who come—and we've never had anybody inspect our rafts—would really not know more about it than we do. We're not against inspection, but we do our own inspection. We inspect our fleet all the time; we inspect all the rafts that go out on the river every single day. They all have multiple air chambers. We've really never ever had an incident where a raft has lost air or a compartment. Sometimes that might happen after a run, and we have the ability to bring another raft to that location or to repair it on the spot.
There really is a danger of over-regulation.
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Do the umbrella outdoor adventure associations you belong to have standards for practices and vessel safety?
1:05 p.m.
Wilderness Tours
Yes, every one we belong to has standards. They have their own internal ones.
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
What about industry standards for the safety of your rafts?
1:05 p.m.
Wilderness Tours
The safety of our rafts is the concern of the Canada River Council. Again, it's a non-governmental agency, an association of operators very much like the law association or the Canadian Medical Association. It's self-policing, self-regulating. And even though Transport Canada is now starting to regulate our industry, our standards exceed theirs—and they really have to.
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
You mentioned that you're part of an American umbrella group. In your understanding of the way the United States government deals with the balancing of the inherent risk in rafting and the protection of passengers, can you describe how they go about dealing with this delicate balance?
1:10 p.m.
Wilderness Tours
What happens, for example, in West Virginia, a big adventure tourism state, is that they have an assumption of risk statute in their state, where if people do these activities, the operator is not responsible unless there's gross negligence on their part.
In the United States, there's no umbrella organization as there is in Canada, because we have a much smaller industry. In the United States, some of the rafting companies operate on U.S. Forest Service land and require U.S. Forest Service directives. Some of them, such as the operators in the Grand Canyon, are in the national park system, so they follow national park guidelines. A lot of the states have their own guidelines, and some states don't have any.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Okay. Thank you.
So there's quite an impetus for your industry to have high standards, because if a single accident occurs, it could impact the industry across the country.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
We did see, just outside of here, the Lady Duck, which was inspected by Transport Canada inspectors, and still we had a tragedy. So when there is an inherent liability on the part of the company, there is quite an incentive to go forth and have the proper inspections.
If there is the allegation of negligence on the part of the rafting company, can the injured party sue, even though they've signed this waiver?
1:10 p.m.
Wilderness Tours
I should have brought a copy of our waiver form, because our waiver form specifically refers to negligence. Our participants sign away their rights for our negligent behaviour. Back in the old days, before the Internet, when we didn't have a way of communicating the language of our waiver, occasionally some people would read that...because we specifically deal with negligence in the waiver form. The reason we do is that, as an operator...to me, there's really no definition of what negligence is, unless it's obvious gross negligence.
For example, if a guide is taking rafters down the rapids and the raft flips and somebody gets injured, obviously something went wrong, but was it guide error? Was it that the people weren't paddling hard enough? Was it just a rogue wave? What was it? But if this guide were high on alcohol or drugs, there would be no protection for us. That would be gross negligence.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Lastly, can you describe the training your guides undergo before they're ever allowed to take a raft down either alone or with an assistant? How many guides do you have?
1:10 p.m.
Wilderness Tours
Our guide training is a three-week process, and the people we hire and invite to guide training all come from a whitewater river adventure sports background. Those are the people we hire. Even with that, they go through a three-week training program. Interestingly enough, the first day of guide training is always very exciting for our new guides, because on day one of guide training we make them swim the rapids. We do that because our guides get very good, and for the most part, even if a raft goes up and people fall out, our guides usually stay in the raft because they know what to expect; they know how to sit in the raft properly. So to make sure our guides never ever lose sight of what it's like to be in the river, the first day of guide training is always swimming the river.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
And when a raft is going down the river, it's pretty much wilderness along that route in several areas. Should a raft overturn, and you have a number of people, say from one of the bigger rafts or even a small one, where it's a lot more fun throwing yourself from side to side, how do you retrieve the people? Even if they're strong swimmers—
1:15 p.m.
Wilderness Tours
There's a certain protocol. At major rapids we accompany a lot of our trips with safety kayakers, who might kayak over and rescue someone. We set up guides on shore with throw lines. If a raft turns over or people fall out, we'll have another raft placed below. There are certain protocols we follow. We know people are going to fall out each and every day. We always prepare for the worst. I'm an ex-Boy Scout and the motto is, “Be prepared”, and we're prepared for every eventuality.
1:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed
Thank you very much.
I think that completes our rounds. Are there any other short comments anyone has to make or wants to make? If not, I'll thank our guests for helping us out today and accommodating us with the timeframe. We appreciate your indulgence. Thank you very much.
For the information of the committee, we will meet again on Tuesday. We will have our last witness in the first hour. The second hour will be clause-by-clause, and if anybody has amendments to come forward, if you could, we would really appreciate your getting them in by late tomorrow, if possible.
Mr. Jean.
1:15 p.m.
Conservative
