Evidence of meeting #22 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was airports.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jim Facette  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Airports Council
Harvey Rosen  Mayor, City of Kingston
Michael McSweeney  Vice-President, Industry Affairs, Cement Association of Canada

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, meeting number 22. Our orders of the day are pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), a study of high speed rail in Canada.

Joining us today from the Canadian Airports Council is Jim Facette, president and chief executive officer. From the City of Kingston, we have Mayor Harvey Rosen, along with Jeff Garrah, chief executive officer. And from the Cement Association of Canada, we have Michael McSweeney, vice-president of industry affairs. Welcome, everyone.

Jim, I understand you might have a time restraint. Do you want to start us off?

3:35 p.m.

Jim Facette President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Airports Council

Mr. Chairman, thank you very much.

Thank you to the committee for your indulgence. I do have a family commitment that I could not get out of.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. It is a great pleasure to be here today.

I am speaking to you today on behalf of Canada's airports. The Canadian Airports Council has 45 members that handle 75% of passenger traffic in Canada and virtually all of the air cargo arriving in Canada.

The potential introduction of high-speed rail in Canada has been an ongoing subject of discussion for many years. Its proponents point to systems in Europe and Japan as models and urge significant public investment and government intervention in our transportation system as a sort of environmental nirvana for Canada sometimes. Canada’s airports have some concerns with the direction of the debate.

Canada’s airports believe there may be a place for high-speed rail in Canada. However, it will be difficult for us to support an approach to high-speed rail if it is pursued in a manner that disregards the importance of our aviation sector or severely risks our sector’s prosperity. Like members of this committee, we eagerly await the outcome of Transport Canada’s study due out early 2010. We hope it provides some answers to the many questions we all have.

Canada has a sparse population largely strung along the vast Canada-U.S. border. On a per capita basis, our economy is highly reliant upon international trade and foreign tourism. As a nation, accordingly, we are highly dependent on aviation. I cannot make this point more strongly. Without aviation, Canada would have trouble functioning as a prosperous nation.

Much of the discussions of high-speed rail suggest a heavy public sector investment is necessary. This includes public-private partnerships. An injection of funds into rail would come in a fiscal environment for aviation in Canada that already is heavily criticized around the world for burdening our sector with high taxes.

For airports, the most notable of these is the $300 million in airport rent our members pay each year. At the same time, airports are responsible for their own infrastructure improvements and have invested more than $9.5 billion in airport infrastructure since 1992.

These are investments paid for not by the taxpayer, but rather through airport improvement fees paid directly by users. If public investment into high-speed rail is inevitable, perhaps the government could make a step toward the elimination of airport rent, the air travellers' security charge, and other aviation fees.

Without structural change to the aviation sector, a public investment in high-speed rail would be a double whammy for our industry, upon which more than 200,000 Canadian jobs rely. With airports already on the hook for infrastructure improvements and burdened by rent and other taxes, having to compete with an improved, subsidized high-speed passenger rail service clearly would be a disadvantage for Canada’s aviation sector and its workers.

Airports and airlines are in competition with rail. We acknowledge that. Further subsidies by the federal or provincial governments to support expansion of high-speed rail services would serve to further an unlevel playing field in favour of the railway operators and at the expense of Canadian airlines and airports that pay their own way.

That said, we also believe it is important to point out the highly integrated nature of air travel. The introduction of high-speed rail has the potential to greatly impact Canada’s complex airline networks. For example, on any given short-haul flight into a hub airport like Toronto, Montreal, or Vancouver, only a portion of those passengers are local. A significant number will be travelling on to a second or even third point in Canada and perhaps beyond.

The integration of transportation modes and the connectivity between modes needs further examination. The viability of the Canadian airline network depends on travellers being able to conveniently and seamlessly connect through a Canadian airport on to their final destination. Connecting traffic can make or break a decision on whether an air carrier will operate a particular route or even serve a community.

Europe understands this to an extent. Its rail and aviation networks are highly integrated. If Canada gets this wrong, we risk losing our passengers altogether. We cannot forget that an Ottawa-Tokyo passenger can just as easily choose to fly over Detroit or Seattle as he or she can choose a Canadian gateway.

In addition, the challenge going forward is that the government is being placed in a position of picking winners and losers. For example, high-speed rail developments in the Alberta context are geared towards collapsing regions and economies, so governments will also be picking winner and loser communities or regions. High-speed rail service that serves only the Calgary airport but does not make stops at other major airports in Alberta would essentially siphon off and consolidate air traffic into a single airport from other airports in the province.

Much has been made about the environment as the raison d'être for high-speed rail in Canada. However, high-speed rail is not necessarily an environmental answer all the time. At the distances needed to travel most of Canada, rail could be less environmentally responsible than aviation. Even in short-distance corridors in which rail may represent an environmental improvement, diverting air passengers to trains would have little overall impact on the environment. Aviation represents just 3% of emissions worldwide.

As I prepare to conclude, let's consider some numbers. Canada's airports handle about 100 million passengers a year without government subsidy, supporting about 200,000 jobs nationwide. As you explore the introduction of high-speed rail in Canada, we ask that you consider these numbers. Around the world there are numerous examples of high-speed rail that is properly integrated into a nation's transportation system as part of a carefully considered national transportation strategy. Passenger rail can be a valuable part of the transportation chain, but success is only ensured if rail is expanded in a fair and equitable manner. If it is introduced at great public expense while aviation continues to suffer a tax squeeze, if it is introduced without regard to its impact on aviation, or if it is introduced as a parallel system of transportation not integrated with aviation, the introduction of high-speed rail would not be right for this country.

The Canadian Airports Council members are not opposed to the work this committee is doing on high-speed rail. It should be explored, but it should be considered as part of a long-overdue national transportation strategy that considers the entirety of our national transportation system.

We look forward to participating in this debate in the future.

Mr. Chairman, thank you very much for the opportunity.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you very much.

Mr. Rosen, would you like to go next?

3:40 p.m.

Harvey Rosen Mayor, City of Kingston

Certainly, thank you.

Mr. Chair and members of the standing committee, on behalf of the City of Kingston, I am pleased to have this opportunity to appear before you to speak to the issue of a proposed high-speed rail line, one that will one day connect the major cities across southern Ontario and Quebec.

Kingston has a prominent place in the history of our country. From 1841 to 1844, Kingston served as the first capital of the united provinces of Upper and Lower Canada. Today the city remains the regional hub for culture, business, and government for over 350,000 citizens in southeastern Ontario and is a national educational and training centre. Kingston is the home community for three post-secondary institutions: Queen's University, St. Lawrence College, and the Royal Military College of Canada, and also hosts many training programs for the Department of National Defence. Canadian Forces Base Kingston is one of our largest employers and is the department's largest base. A number of public sector offices, representing several provincial and federal government ministries, including Corrections Canada institutions and regional offices, are located here.

Kingston is also home to important private sector businesses such as Novelis, Invista, DuPont, and Bombardier, forward-thinking, progressive businesses that contribute to the balanced strength of our local economy and employ a great number of people throughout the region. Individuals who work and serve through these public and private sector businesses and institutions consistently use the existing passenger rail service.

Recent statistics show that Kingston's VIA Rail train station is the fourth busiest station in Ontario in terms of passenger traffic through its doors, and the fifth busiest in Canada. These numbers prove a significant demand is in place for passenger rail service, especially considering Kingston is the twenty-fifth largest census metropolitan area in the country.

In addition to our mobile workforce, Kingston's geographic location makes rail service an important mode of transportation. Kingston is situated on the north shore of Lake Ontario, at the entrance to the St. Lawrence River, along the 401 corridor. Kingston is located less than two hours by motor vehicle to the south of the nation's capital, just over two hours east of the provincial capital of Toronto, and just over two hours west of Montreal. Our geographic location demonstrates that Kingston is the transportation hub for southeastern Ontario and is thus a busy rail feeder community for those larger municipalities surrounding us.

Many residents, business travellers, military and provincial government personnel, as well as a significant number of tourists prefer the use of rail transportation to travel to and from the city, due to its cost-effectiveness, its convenience, and the fact that it is an environmentally responsible alternative to automobile use. The prospect of the implementation of a high-speed rail service is exciting and, we would submit, is much needed along the Quebec City-Windsor corridor to include Ottawa as well. It is imperative that Kingston remain in consideration as an important stopping point along any proposed future high-speed rail line.

An infrastructure project such as this requires planning and forecasting that goes far beyond the year ahead of us or even the next 20 or 50 years. With the expected continued population growth in the decades to come, a process that is moving away from the large metropolitan centres such as Toronto, Montreal, and Ottawa to communities along the 401 corridor, including Kingston, it is important to ensure that future service to accommodate the residential and business growth is in place. With the region's expected growth, Kingston's prominence in the region is projected to become even more pronounced.

Kingston possesses over 20 national historic sites, over 600 historically designated buildings, and as many of you are aware, it is the home of the UNESCO World Heritage sites, the Rideau Canal and Kingston fortifications.

Kingston's historic education and training significance to the region and more broadly to the country, in combination with its geographic location and current status as the fifth busiest train station in Canada, all reflect the need for its inclusion on a high-speed rail line connecting Quebec and Ontario through its major centres. Kingston is a major centre that must be accessible from any future high-speed rail line to better service the people of Canada.

Mr. Chair, the Kingston community recognizes that a significant amount of energy and research time has been invested over the past few decades in the identification and potential implementation of a high-speed rail service connecting Quebec and Ontario urban centres. That being said, the Kingston community urges the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities to work toward identifying and confirming Kingston as a location on any future high-speed rail system.

The City of Kingston is aware of the SNCF report, and we will consider joining that group of cities supporting it, under certain circumstances. It is imperative that the proposed high-speed rail line, currently planned to connect Ottawa and Toronto, come through or come close to Kingston. As it currently appears, the line passes through a large rural and wilderness region of eastern Ontario, one that misses the entire southeastern Ontario urban population, from the Quebec-Ontario border to Toronto. We understand that for a high-speed line to be most effective, the number of stops needs to be kept to a minimum. But adding an important regional stop in or near Kingston would avoid the exclusion of our entire region under the current SNCF report.

A station stop 15 minutes north of Kingston would be a healthy compromise, and one that would encourage Kingston to invest in and expand our use of municipal transit to support access to a high-speed rail station, including connection service to the existing VIA station.

The City of Kingston is also aware of the joint federal-Ontario-Quebec study that is under way, and we are intently interested in its findings.

I encourage the government to consider all options. One of these options must be Bombardier's advice respecting a 401-centred alignment, one that could eventually follow the 407 through the GTA. This model would service the most heavily populated region of Canada.

Would it not be more prudent for the government to aim to transport as many people as possible through the largest site points on a corridor already owned by provincial governments, one that is easily accessible for construction purposes, avoiding the scores of lakes, rivers, and marshes that would have to be acquired and traversed on a more northerly route?

High-speed rail has been discussed on and off for more than 25 years, and little action has been taken. The City of Kingston is encouraged by the new-found study activity, for several reasons. The construction of a high-speed rail line will create numerous new jobs in Quebec and Ontario, it will help to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and it will reduce infrastructure spending on our major highways.

The municipality is willing to work in partnership to ensure that local infrastructure and services are in place to complement any future plans that include Kingston.

As a great Kingstonian once said, “In conclusion, I would again implore the House not to let this opportunity pass. It is an opportunity that may never recur. If we do not take advantage of the time, if we show ourselves unequal to the occasion, it may never return, and we shall hereafter bitterly and unavailingly regret having failed to embrace the happy opportunity.” The man who spoke these words was Sir John A. Macdonald. Our first Prime Minister spoke of seizing the moment to plan for a better Canada. Today, Sir John A. Macdonald's home city of Kingston asks to be included in this “happy opportunity”.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you very much.

Michael.

3:50 p.m.

Michael McSweeney Vice-President, Industry Affairs, Cement Association of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee.

My name is Michael McSweeney. I'm with the Cement Association of Canada.

l'd like to thank you for having us here today to provide a little bit of input on how to relate cement and concrete to your study on high-speed rail in Canada.

In terms of a brief overview, which you've been provided with, I'll begin by introducing the cement industry and what we believe is our role in the economic stimulus plan. Then I'll touch on the sustainable properties of cement and concrete and discuss the importance of both life-cycle analysis and total cost of ownership concepts as important planning tools for high-speed rail in Canada.

The Cement Association represents the cement industry right across Canada. Our members include eight cement companies, with manufacturing facilities in five provinces. They are Lafarge North America, Holcim (Canada), Essroc Italcementi, Federal White, Ciment Québec, CalPortland, St. Marys Cement, and Lehigh Hanson Canada. These are among the world's largest multinational cement companies, all operating here in Canada.

In addition to making up over 98% of the Canadian cement manufacturing industries, our members are totally vertically integrated with concrete, aggregate, and construction companies across the country.

In case you didn't know--and I always raise this because I was once with a provincial minister of the environment who asked me what the difference was between cement and concrete--cement is a fine grey powder that, when mixed with gravel, sand, and water, makes concrete. Cement is an intermediary product in the manufacture of the most commonly used and sustainable construction material in Canada, across the world, actually--concrete.

Concrete is second only to water as the building product most used around the world. Concrete is indeed the foundation of our infrastructure. When you look around, you start to notice that everything in our society is built on concrete. Every time you go to the washroom and flush the toilet or wash your hands, it's a concrete pipe that ultimately takes away the waste water. This building is manufactured with concrete. Roads, sidewalks, and runways at airports are made with concrete.

With an understanding of the makeup of our industry and the significance of concrete to construction, it's clear that our industry is a necessary and central part in the government's effort to renew the infrastructure across Canada. In fact, the federal government's economic stimulus plan, in its commitment to make historic investments in Canada's infrastructure, is indeed a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to spend historically large amounts of money, but spend them wisely.

Before us now is the opportunity to build a new foundation of sustainable, safe, energy-efficient infrastructure, including our transportation system, that will contribute to improving Canada's competitive edge. A focus on sustainability will be critical to ensure that we invest our dollars wisely and that these investments will provide Canadians with a lasting and durable infrastructure program.

Additionally--and I know it's not in the purview of this committee--cement and concrete can play an active role in reducing greenhouse gas emissions. I know that the Minister of the Environment would be pleased to see other government departments doing their fair share to reduce greenhouse gases across the country. If I might add to my colleague Jim's comments, while the airline industry produces only 3% of the greenhouse gases, it produces them way up there where they are transferred all around the world.

Our industry has a central role in the construction of sustainable infrastructure, an infrastructure that should be built to last. With a track record that is literally thousands of years old, cement used in the construction of the ancient pyramids has many eco-friendly attributes. It's durable, resource and energy efficient, and produced locally; it minimizes the urban heat island effect; and it has a low carbon footprint. Concrete offers innovative construction solutions and architectural possibilities.

From coast to coast, think of Canada's major concrete projects: the Confederation Bridge that links P.E.I. to New Brunswick; the architectural magnificence of the Museum of Civilization across the river in Gatineau; and the Dockside Green housing development in Victoria, which has recently been recognized by the Clinton Foundation's global climate initiative as one of the world's model projects for sustainable urban growth. Before construction began, a lead-contaminated area was remediated with cement-based solidification and stabilization. Concrete is the cornerstone of that development.

Let me assure you, though, that concrete also offers innovative solutions to high-speed rail, which we're here to talk about today. Our members have the ability to bring their multinational experiences to the construction of high-speed rail systems from around the world right here in Canada.

There is a global momentum gaining speed around the construction technology called concrete slab track, which is specifically designed for high-speed rail use. It is essentially the concrete highway of railway. Just as highways are built with concrete--they last longer, they're safer, they require 22% less lighting, they're economical--so too should our rail systems be built with concrete.

Concrete slab track is ideal for high-speed rail as well as heavy freight traffic and other railway loads. In fact, concrete slab track is on the horizon to replace traditional track structure of ties and ballasts, which at this point is a centuries-old building practice. Experience and extensive testing by governments and industry around the world have demonstrated that concrete slab track provides many advantages for the high-speed rail system.

Of many advantages, let me highlight just a few. First, with a concrete slab track, derailments are less frequent, as track alignment and grade are better maintained. Second, there's greater stability and better electrical insulation. Finally, there are lower maintenance costs, and as I'm certain you can appreciate, less frequent maintenance means less interruption of service.

As an example of movement towards concrete slab track, following the hard lessons from the high-cost maintenance of the bullet train, the Japanese Railway Technical Research Institute has spent over 30 years researching concrete slab railway track. Now, all new high-speed rail lines in Japan are built on concrete slab track systems.

As Europe is moving towards integrating its national railway system, both the German and French governments are considering concrete slab track for their own high-speed rail use. Concrete slab track has also been used for portions of the Long Island Rail Road and the Eurotunnel, and even by the CPR here in Canada, near Rogers Pass, in British Columbia.

International research has shown that while there's an approximate 30% upfront premium cost for concrete slab track, this premium typically has yielded a payback of between five and twelve years. These kinds of upfront costs highlight the need to include life-cycle cost analysis and take a total-cost-of-ownership perspective when evaluating the costs of construction, constructability, maintenance, and operation of a high-speed rail system.

The model should never be, when you spend taxpayers' money, that the lowest-cost tender wins. That's just wrong. The model should be to built it once, and build it right. Life-cycle assessments and the total-cost-of-ownership concept are an integral part of a cost-benefit analysis, both economically and environmentally.

To conclude, let me say that my colleagues and I have watched your proceedings very closely and with great interest, and we were pleased to learn that Transport Canada, along with the Governments of Ontario and Quebec, are updating a feasibility study on high-speed rail in Canada. However, in order to ensure that Canadians receive the maximum value and benefit for long-term infrastructure investments, we must ensure that we look beyond the initial cost. We must not take the short-term view. We must take the long-term view and support the choice of a more durable, sustainable infrastructure solution like the one concrete can provide.

That's my soapbox, Mr. Chairman and committee members. It has been a pleasure to be here today. Whenever you're ready, I'm able to answer some of your questions, hopefully.

Thank you.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you very much.

Mr. Volpe.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for coming and sharing with us your perceptions on where this study is going and where it ought to go.

I'm wondering if I can begin with Mr. Facette, because he's the one who has to rush away.

Mr. Facette, I didn't hear you say that your association is against a high-speed train concept, because I think you used some key words here, that you were looking for a totally integrated and connected multimodal passenger system that would obviously include air travellers. The second thing you indicated is that what this country has been lacking for quite some time is a transportation strategy. I think you used the words “long overdue”.

That said, you did point to two other issues: one, the investments that your association has made over the course of 10 years, which are about $900 million a year; and secondly, that you don't want your productivity or your profitability hurt. I can respect both.

So I'm going to ask you something about one of your members, the GTAA. It currently has two terminals, quite large. One of them, I think, is underutilized. It was classic in its day, about 20 years ago, Terminal 3. I'm wondering whether your association has thought at all in terms of the perspectives that Mayor Rosen has brought to the table, and that is that they might want that particular terminal to be converted into a station for a high-speed rail that would provide immediate conductivity and total integration.

4 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Airports Council

Jim Facette

As an industry association, we've given it a little bit of thought in terms of interconnectivity with other modes of transportation. Mr. Volpe, you've touched on one possibility that might exist at one of our member's facilities. That's a possibility.

The use of existing infrastructure at an airport is something that is consistently looked at by an airport authority, whether it's in the GTA or Edmonton or Winnipeg or anywhere else. I think what you're pointing to is how airport authorities in Canada look at their facilities and how they want to integrate those facilities with other modes of transportation.

There are two fantastic examples already in Canada--or three, in fact. If you look at what Vancouver has done, Vancouver has made its own investment in rail into downtown: the Canada Line. It will be opening, I believe, in August or September of this year. In fact, it may be opening early. The airport authority has invested, I think, in excess of $200 million of its own money in that section of the rail on the airport property. So it owns that infrastructure on the property. It will take passengers from their flights at the airport right to downtown Vancouver.

There are two other airports in Canada. In particular, in Winnipeg they have an inland port project, which will be a total integration of many different modes, whether it's rail, current freight rail, or highways. Our minister made a major announcement on a major highway project into the Winnipeg area for this port project. And in Edmonton, there is the Port Alberta concept.

Airport authorities are consistently looking at how they can integrate with other modes of transportation. Your example, sir, of how Toronto might look at Terminal 3 is an option they may explore. I understand that they'll be here on Thursday. It would be a good question for them on Thursday, maybe, so you can get some detail on it.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

The most important issue, though, is that you're looking at a system that's totally integrated. You really don't have a problem with that.

Mr. McSweeney, one of the reasons I think the committee wanted to invite you and your industry here is that we wanted to get a sense of all the stakeholders or all the participants in constructing high-speed rail. In your introduction, you wanted to talk about some cost factors. Has your association or any individual member actually done an assessment of what it would cost the constructor--the builder--in cement, concrete, and so on to lay the base for the rail?

4:05 p.m.

Vice-President, Industry Affairs, Cement Association of Canada

Michael McSweeney

Yes. As I mentioned, it's about a 30% premium to build it, but it would last for 40 to 50 years and would have a payback period of between five and twelve years. You know, it depends.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

When you say it's a 30% premium, that is on what?

4:05 p.m.

Vice-President, Industry Affairs, Cement Association of Canada

Michael McSweeney

For the material being used today, it's a 30% premium over the cost of traditional building materials for ties and ballasts.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

On a per kilometre basis, what would it cost?

4:05 p.m.

Vice-President, Industry Affairs, Cement Association of Canada

Michael McSweeney

I haven't done those numbers, but I'd be happy to provide them.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Could you ballpark it, just so I know what you're going to give us?

4:05 p.m.

Vice-President, Industry Affairs, Cement Association of Canada

Michael McSweeney

No, I'm sorry, I can't, but I'd be happy to provide that in the next week or so.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Would you, please, maybe through the chair?

4:05 p.m.

Vice-President, Industry Affairs, Cement Association of Canada

Michael McSweeney

Yes, I will do it through the chair, no problem.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Mayor Rosen, I know that it's a little uncomfortable trying to deal with three disparate views, all on the same topic, with seven minutes of time.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

You have one minute.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Oh, I have one minute. Sorry.

We had a representative from another city here to talk about the advantages of high-speed rail. We really didn't know whether you would say yea or nay or whether in fact you're in favour. But it seemed like a fairly balanced position. You're in favour of high-speed rail, but it has to go through Kingston or very close to it. Fifteen minutes outside downtown Kingston sounds to me like the short-term, mid-term planning cycle of the city for expansion to wherever it is the train station's going to go.

Since you're giving us a sense of the importance of a station to the City of Kingston, can I get a sense of what the City of Kingston might want to do with a location? I just asked Mr. Facette about Terminal 3 as a station. What do you have in mind?

4:05 p.m.

Mayor, City of Kingston

Harvey Rosen

It would likely have to be north of the 401, and 20 kilometres north of the 401 you're at Rutledge Road, just north of Loughborough Lake. Anywhere in that 20-kilometre range is 15 minutes from Kingston, from the built-up area. It's certainly outside, at this point, the long-term growth prospects for the city north. The city is growing west and east, not so much north. But certainly the municipal transit system would connect, obviously, to a high-speed station at that distance. It would provide a shuttle service from the existing VIA station, which would be a collector from the region to feed the high-speed station. If it went to Pearson Airport, I think that would be an advantage to the airline industry to have that facility and that base of population served by that airport.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

To interface and connect with high speed. The local transit authorities, if I might call them that, would be prepared to make the connection or connectivity with that kind of system without asking the federal government to foot the bill.

4:05 p.m.

Mayor, City of Kingston

Harvey Rosen

At this point there's no project on the books, but we are the home of Bombardier, and perhaps a light rail connection from downtown Kingston wouldn't be out of the realm of possibilities in the long term.