Transport Committee on June 2nd, 2009

[Michael McSweeney]

For the last 30 years. And it's my understanding, to the best of my knowledge, that today concrete slabs are being used for the construction of high-speed rail for the bullet trains.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

What about page 5 of your report? You indicate that “As Europe is moving towards integrating its national railway systems, both German and French National Railways consider concrete slab track for their high-speed rail programs”. Are they using concrete as well?

[Michael McSweeney]

In certain parts, they are. Again, a lot of this depends on costing, but certainly the research we've done in preparation for coming here today indicates that this is a viable technology and that it's being slowly adopted around the world, just as uses for concrete in many projects and products are slowly being adopted as people are looking at new forms of technology. Do we want to use timber and soak it in tar and lay it down and expect that to last? Is that a technology we want to put high-speed rail on? I'm not sure.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Are they still building high-speed rail in Germany and France, using your example, not with concrete? In your comment you said that in certain parts they are using it.

[Michael McSweeney]

That's correct—in parts.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

So in other places in those countries, they're not using concrete.

[Michael McSweeney]

That's right, and I would have to assume it's for a variety of reasons. One of those reasons might be cost.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

I'm not for or against; I'm just trying to get the facts. It's because of costs in relation to durability considerations as well, presumably.

[Michael McSweeney]

I can't speak to that.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

You indicated earlier that when using concrete there is a 30- to 50-year wearability of the slab. What is the durability of the traditional method that's still currently used in parts of Germany and France?

[Michael McSweeney]

I can't speak to the durability of the current use. I can only say that when we looked at Japan, which is one of the first countries in the world to build high-speed trains, they started with the old technology, as I understand it, and today they are using concrete slabs.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

So you don't actually know what the durability comparison is between concrete and the current traditional method.

[Michael McSweeney]

Off the top of my head, I don't know, but I can get it for you.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

I would respectfully suggest that we need to know that in making this decision, especially when there is an increased price.

[Michael McSweeney]

I'll get you that information.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

As for other reasons for concrete over the traditional method, I'm concerned about the weather in Canada as well. This point was raised by my friend. Although Japan may use it, we have much different conditions here.

What would the weather rating be in terms of negative temperatures and what we have to face here? Do you know? Are there any studies, or is there any evidence on this question?

[Michael McSweeney]

There aren't any done by Canadians, but there are by the Japanese and Europeans. I'll do my best to get you some exact excerpts from those studies.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Okay.

The other thing is, concerning the overall price—one of the other gentlemen mentioned getting cars off the road—are there any studies showing exactly what would take place if this high-speed were in place? For example, what would the price be? Do we know? This may be something that will be reviewed on Thursday, when I won't be here. But if it's $500 to go from Montreal to Toronto, there'll be fewer people using it than if it's $150.

I'm curious as to whether there are any studies showing that.

[Michael McSweeney]

I'm not from the airline industry or from VIA Rail, so I can't comment on that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Ms. Brown.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

My real question was for Mr. Facette; I'm sorry he's not here.

I want to make a comment to Mr. Rosen. I'm sure my committee colleagues are going to get very tired of my saying this, but should high-speed rail go through, I will be an advocate for its going through York region, because I represent a riding just north of Toronto.

My question to you is, have you had any discussion with other mayors or members of the Federation of Municipalities of Ontario to discuss this issue of where corridors may go?

I'll wrap in some of my question that would have gone to Mr. Facette.

I think Ontario--and I'm looking particularly at the corridor between Toronto or York region and Montreal--would be the most likely place for us to begin with a project of this nature. We have to think of this in some terms of nation building. We need to put that vision part into the discussion. In Ontario, we are now going to have to deal with the Oak Ridges Moraine acts that came into play in 1998 after the last study was done. There are significant environmental assessments that will have to go on, and corridor studies. Someone was discussing corridors along Highway 407, perhaps, which I think is a very reasonable area for us to look at.

Have you had discussion with the other members of the federation of municipalities of Ontario?

[Harvey Rosen]

I have had some. We have an organization in eastern Ontario, the eastern Ontario mayors' caucus, which I established after the election in 2003. They are the mayors of the cities and separated towns in eastern Ontario. We invited Ottawa; they didn't want to join. But we have all of the other cities and separated towns as members.

At the last meeting, just last Friday, I discussed my presence today before this committee. They were very supportive of recognizing Kingston as a collector point for eastern Ontario. To give you an example of the central location of Kingston in terms of this part of the province and of the country, although the meetings of the eastern Ontario mayors' caucus began in Kingston because I was the chair, we've moved through four separate chairs, the others being from Prescott, Brockville, and Peterborough, and we've always had meetings in Kingston because it was the most convenient point for everybody to attend.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

It would make every sense because of the size of the university and the military base there. I think it's a reasonable idea to entertain, but I would suggest that perhaps the municipalities to the west of Kingston also should be part of the discussion. Perhaps we need to be inviting people from the association to be part of the representation here, as well.

[Harvey Rosen]

Maybe I shouldn't say this, but I think that AMO—it probably would be AMO, the Association of Municipalities of Ontario, since we're talking about this corridor through Ontario—might be reluctant to make a representation. Toronto is not a member of AMO at this point. If they took a position one way or the other with respect to any particular community, they might have mayors urging their communities to resign their membership. It's a controversial and contentious issue among competing cities, and they have to represent everybody on an equitable basis. I think they would find it very difficult to present a case that would be common to every municipality that might be affected by this transportation system.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Because of the time, I'm just going to make one more round, if there are any other final comments or questions—a couple of minutes each, if you'd prefer.

Mr. Jean.