Transport Committee on Oct. 19th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Minister, excuse me.

Mr. Watson is next on a point of order.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

That's an untruth, and you know that.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

But it's true. The Spadina subway extension...is that true?

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

It's not true.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

It's not true?

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Excuse me.

Can I have order here, please? Thank you.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

We didn't give $666 million for two Liberal ridings?

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

I have to ask everyone to recognize Mr. Watson, who has been waiting patiently.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would expect such an intervention from Mr. Kennedy, who has undoubtedly left the room, as we should all know--big surprise.

This has no relevance to the bill in front of us here, and I think we should at least keep to the legislation. The line of questioning by Mr. Volpe may be self-serving, but it certainly doesn't serve the interests of the bill.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

I'm suggesting that is a point of order, and we will go back on topic with Monsieur Nadeau.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Let's us talk about ecological integrity, which is referred to in the bill, as it concerns the National Capital Commission. We know that the ultimate priority is to ensure proper environmental management of national parks. Why don't we have that same priority for Gatineau Park?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

With national parks we try to preserve examples of every one of Canada's ecosystems. Gros Morne National Park and Nahanni National Park are treasures. We want to preserve the ecological integrity of Gatineau Park. We're not proposing that it go as far as all of the protections for a national park--we fully admit that. I think there are significant protections for the ecology of the park. It is also a controversial issue in the province of Quebec when the federal government designates national parks.

Mr. Dewar raised issues with respect to the ecological integrity rather than due regard for ecological integrity, so we certainly welcome the committee's views on these issues.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

That is very important. Some areas of Gatineau Park are unique and contain microclimates. There are others in Quebec and Canada elsewhere, but there are also some to be found in that park. We all know the history of the Champlain Sea and the geological formations it gave rise to in Gatineau Park. Those microclimates must be preserved.

Minister, it would be a very good thing to have additional protection for Gatineau Park. It would be a win-win situation for everyone.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I agree that ecological protection, ecological integrity, is important. We do things in different ways. We have national parks, marine conservation areas, whale sanctuaries, and protected areas. We have a variety within the federal family alone.

After looking at the bill and hearing from witnesses, if you think there could be more precision put to that, as Mr. Dewar and now you have proposed, the government is certainly prepared to hear that out. I want to be very clear that if the committee can help make this bill better, we're very pleased to work with you. Then all of us can go back to our constituencies, whether they're here or around the country, and celebrate the fact that we did a good thing.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Please be assured, Minister, that we are going to work on that, that is the purpose of the exercise. I agree with you on that.

Decisions were made by Treasury Board. On September 15, 1988 and September 29, 2008, because of budget cuts, instructions were given to the NCC to divest itself of excess lands. You have been a member of Treasury Board and know that the dominant concerns are financial rather than environmental, especially when it comes to the NCC and the preservation of ecological and environmental heritage.

Could Treasury Board once again impose this type of direction on the NCC, against which the bill would be of no use?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I think there can be areas of land that lose, for various reasons, their national significance or lose their connection to the greenbelt. From time to time on transportation routes, scraps of land end up cut off from the main greenbelt.

My view, I guess, is twofold: one, that if they're surplus lands, they should genuinely be surplus; two, that they not be a source of revenue for the commission; and three, if you do have some extra funds with respect to a slice of land that had to be given up for another purpose, you take those moneys and buy other lands that could help improve the greenbelt so that, at the end of the day, the greenbelt is kept whole or in fact improved.

As I said, some of the greenbelt lands, whether they be woodlots or whether they be wetlands, are extraordinary, and others are just now commercial cornfields.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

I understand what you are saying about balance.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

And I'm not proposing that we sell the commercial cornfields, let me be very clear.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

There was a moratorium on that decision concerning whether to expand or improve NCC lands. This is a double-edged sword: lands can be sold, but none can be acquired. That means that all of the NCC territory is being considered as being a part of the national interest land mass. This means that the definition is not clear if the way in which things are done can be changed that way.

I have other questions that come to mind, regarding private property within Gatineau Park, for instance. If private owners cause environmental damage, how can we protect the park and ensure that those owners understand well that causing damage to Gatineau Park is absolutely unacceptable? How can this bill protect Gatineau Park if such an unfortunate situation were to arise?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

That's an excellent question. I'll take it back to officials, because it's a very precise one.

Obviously they should have the capacity to monitor to ensure that the private property within Gatineau Park isn't able to deteriorate the quality of the ecosystems in the park and to ensure that standard environmental practices and what not are enforced.

You asked briefly, at the outset of your comments, how we improve the lands. You know, I'd love to see us, for example, along the roads, if you look at west Nepean or around Blackburn Hamlet in the east with respect to the greenbelt.... You have all this surplus land now that came from the closing of the various research facilities at Agriculture Canada. What should we be doing in terms of planting trees beside them? What can we do that would enhance the capital in that respect? Surely we can do better than simply being a landlord for old tenants or simply renting it out. Could we be planting trees? There are significant lands by the Rideau River and along Gatineau Park. Should we try to return those to ecological integrity? There has been some work done by the Rideau Valley Conservation Authority.

So I think rather than just sitting on this land and even just renting it out, we should look at what we can do that would provide for returning the land to its original state. How do we make it available for people? The NCC does a tremendous job with bike paths and with supports for families, as with Vincent Massey Park. I think there can always be opportunities for returning it to its ecological integrity, planting more trees, making it more available for the public--as in bike paths, or as in Gatineau Park with the cross-country skiing that's enjoyed by folks.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Merci.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you.

Mr. Jean, you have two minutes. This will be the last set of questions.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for making the time to come and introduce this bill.

I have, like Mr. Volpe, an interesting constituency. I think we have the largest infrastructure deficit in the country in Fort McMurray, or we did have before this government took power, for certain. We contribute somewhere in the neighbourhood of $6 billion to $8 billion a year in taxes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Proulx.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, in French we would say what's good for pitou is good for minou. If it was a point of order that he was out of order a minute ago, the same thing applies to Mr. Jean here.