Transport Committee on Oct. 21st, 2009

[The Chair (Mr. Mervin Tweed (Brandon—Souris, CPC)), Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, meeting number 31.

Our order of the day, pursuant to the order of reference of Monday, October 5, 2009, is Bill C-37, an act to amend the National Capital Act and other acts.

Joining us today, from the Municipality of Chelsea, is the mayor, Monsieur Jean Perras. Also with us are Claude Garand, past president of the Meech Lake Association, and Malcolm MacTavish, president of the Kingsmere Property Owners Association.

We're ready to go. You know the format, so I will ask you to begin, please.

[Jean Perras, Mayor, Municipality of Chelsea]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I would like to thank you for inviting us to participate in your committee's work. With me are Malcolm MacTavish and Claude Garand, who will speak after my introduction. Following that, we will be able to answer some of your questions.

First, who are we? The Municipality of Chelsea is located in west Quebec adjacent to the Gatineau Park. It is the home of 7,000 residents, 500 who live on privately owned property in the park. The Kingsmere Property Owners Association and the Meech Lake Association represent some 140 families who live in the Gatineau Park.

Chelsea is a recognized municipal leader in environmental protection. Chelsea's mission statement is to improve the quality of life for current and future generations by offering community, cultural, and recreational services and activities, the protection and enhancement of the environment, and the preservation of territorial boundaries.

We have won several awards: the Quebec public administration award for its ban on pesticides, and the Canadian Federation of Municipalities sustainable community award for the H2O project developed by the Municipality of Chelsea, Action Chelsea for the Respect of the Environment, and the University of Ottawa. This innovative project comprises three major components: water quality and quantity testing; the measurement of static water levels in local wells; and testing of Chelsea lakes and waterways, which include Kingsmere Lake and Meech Lake.

[Malcolm MacTavish, President, Kingsmere Property Owners Association, Municipality of Chelsea]

Private property pre-dates the NCC, the Federal District Commission, and Gatineau Park. Chelsea residents and members of both associations can trace their roots back to the turn of the last century. Indeed, some of the members of these two associations represent family land holdings that pre-date the National Capital Commission, the NCC's predecessor, the Federal District Commission, as well as the formation of the park.

Our residents understand what a wonderful asset the park represents to the national capital region and to Canadians in general. We love the park, our two lakes, and the lands around them. Over the past half-century we have embraced a mixed private and public use and ownership philosophy. Moreover, we have contributed much to the social and economic well-being of Chelsea and west Quebec.

We believe strongly in the preservation of the environment, natural beauty, and heritage of Gatineau Park. Over the past 100 years our residents have demonstrated their dedicated stewardship of the park and community in which they live. Many of the hiking and cross-country ski trails that criss-cross the park were built by us. Area cleanup days, H2O Chelsea water sampling and surveys, water and trail medical rescues and evacuations, fire monitoring, and other similar beneficial public activities are routinely undertaken by us, and happily so.

Chelsea is a green municipality, perhaps the greenest community in our province and across the country. Municipal building codes and septic system control and monitoring in Chelsea are among the most stringent in Canada. This type of municipal government leadership is essential to any community and lends support to our goals of respect and preservation of the natural world around us.

[Jean Perras]

Chelsea and the two associations support federal, provincial and municipal government rules and regulations which are intended to protect the park and to ensure that publicly-owned lands are accessible to the public. This support is tempered only by our belief the present and future rules and regulations should not unduly or unfairly fetter ownership, access, or use of privately-owned family homes whether they be full-time or seasonal residences.

We fully support the NCC's continued management of the federal government's property holdings within the park. We also support the NCC's goal of clearly delineating the boundaries of the park and completing a comprehensive survey of the park to clearly establish the location and size of publicly owned lands--federal government and province of Quebec-owned lands--and privately owned properties.

[Claude Garand, Past President, Meech Lake Association, Municipality of Chelsea]

Chelsea and the two associations share the common and firmly held belief that there is no need for special legislation which restricts the resale of our residents' homes and properties. Any restriction on resale, such as the right of first refusal, is unnecessary and unfair: unnecessary in that the federal government already has the general power of expropriation which it has used over the years to acquire large tracks of land which could be commercialized; and, unfair in that it would artificially reduce property values, which essentially amounts to expropriation without compensation. We support an open real estate market and note that there is no impediment to the NCC bidding on properties which become available on the market.

We feel that the objectives of the NCC can be met either by accessing the open resale market or, in special circumstances, using the federal government's power of expropriation. The latter comes with appropriate checks and balances to ensure due and fair process accompanied by the requirement for ordinary public policy rationale underlying any expropriation of private homes.

Millions of Canadians from coast to coast enjoy the social and economic benefits of private home ownership. The majority of these Canadians count their home as their primary family asset. Private homes have been established at Kingsmere and Meech Lakes since the 1800s. We are also in general agreement with the NCC's most recent position on private properties and residential uses. Integral to this support is our assumption that none of the NCC's objectives will be interpreted in a way that would cause a change in the reasonable use and enjoyment of our homes and properties and that if there were such changes it would be because they would generally be applicable to other Canadians at or about the same time.

[Jean Perras]

Finally, Chelsea and the two associations support fully the maximum degree of consultation and cooperation among the three levels of government that influence and/or govern the park. We also pledge to be part of this process to the extent possible. Through understanding and cooperation we can all work to ensure the welfare of Gatineau Park and the continued harmony between public and private use.

Merci, monsieur le président.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you very much.

Monsieur Proulx.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Perras, thank you for having come here today to meet with us.

I also thank you, Mr. Garand.

Thank you, Mr. MacTavish.

Mr. Perras, we are taking advantage of your presence while you are in the dying days of your mandate as mayor of the municipality. You have been the mayor for many years, and I congratulate you for that.

I would like to be able to discuss the principles of the bill that has been tabled with you. I would like to know, as a municipal authority and as a person who has knowledge of this, if you agree with us. Subclause 9(1) of Bill C-37 adds to the National Capital Commission's mandate because it includes the concept of transportation in the region.

We believe we should be much more specific in order to clearly establish the presence of the National Capital Commission in the planning of interprovincial highways and public transportation, and we are going one step further. We believe that, since the National Capital Commission would be involved in interprovincial transport—which includes the bridges, the management of existing bridges and future crossings over the Ottawa River within the territory of the National Capital Region—that this should be transferred and be overseen by the National Capital Commission.

The Champlain and Portage Bridges are already managed by the National Capital Commission. It would be a question of transferring the Chaudières Bridge, the Interprovincial Bridge and the federal part of the Macdonald-Cartier Bridge, which are currently managed by Public Works and Government Services Canada. There would obviously need to be a budget to go along with that.

I would like to hear your opinion on this issue. Even though your municipality does not reach as far as the banks of the Ottawa River, it benefits from interprovincial transportation within the municipality of Ottawa. In fact, the STO services cater to a Québecois clientele made up of your residents. The STO is held up more often than in the past by the lack of interprovincial links, by problems on the roads network, etc. I would therefore like to hear what you think about the mandate that should be given to the National Capital Commission in terms of transportation in the National Capital Region.

[Jean Perras]

I will answer that wearing two different hats, if I may.

First of all, we were supportive... During the consultations that led to the National Capital Commission's most recent master plan, we said that there would have to be an approach to public transportation in the park. In our opinion, we feel it would be a good idea to develop a strategic plan for the future of the park, to ensure that there be fewer vehicles, with the STO, the Ottawa Commission and the National Capital Commission working together. On some weekends, it is almost impossible to drive around the park because of the number of cars. In our brief, two or three years ago, we stated that it would not be a bad idea if the NCC and other organizations concerned with collective transportation, with public transport got together to develop a park strategy.

Secondly, as an administrator of the STO, I can tell you that the Société de transport de l'Outaouais has always had very close ties to Ottawa and the NCC as far as the bridges are concerned, as far as getting traffic to move much more quickly. Currently, on some mornings, it is almost impossible to cross these bridges.

Whether or not the federal government gives this authority to the NCC, we must find a solution to this problem. We believe, at the STO—and I'm speaking on behalf of the Municipality of Chelsea—that a broader mandate for the NCC in terms of transportation, and of public transportation in particular, could help us to resolve the traffic problems in the morning and the evening.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

My question is for Mr. Perras, but Mr. Garand and Mr. MacTavish, please feel free to answer as well.

Within the municipality, there are other lands, other properties that belong to the National Capital Commission, beyond what is recognized as being Gatineau Park.

I refer you to proposal clause 10.4(2) in the bill, which reads as follows:(2) The Commission shall give due regard to the maintenance of the ecological integrity, through the protection of natural resources and processes, of any property of the Commission that is an immovable located in Gatineau Park.

It is an issue of giving due regard to the maintenance of the ecological integrity. We believe that we should rather be speaking about giving priority to the maintenance of the ecological integrity. In fact, it would be much clearer for the National Capital Commission if it was an issue of giving priority to the maintenance of this ecological integrity, rather than simply giving due regard to the maintenance of the ecological integrity. What do you think?

Moreover, my question is focused not only on Gatineau Park lands, Mr. Perras, Mr. Garand and Mr. MacTavish, but also on the other lands that belong to the National Capital Commission. You can answer us as far as the lands within your municipality are concerned, but we are going far beyond that. We are also talking about the greenbelt, on the Ottawa side, and other National Capital Commission properties.

How do you see that, Mr. Perras?

[Jean Perras]

We have always agreed that the National Capital Commission's priority is to ensure the biophysical and ecological integrity of Gatineau Park. Furthermore, we have already stated that in written briefs and during meetings with the NCC at all levels, from the working level right up to the level of the CEO.

You are referring to lands that are not necessarily in the park. There are a few along the right-hand side of Highway 5 if you are heading towards Wakefield.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

On the east side.

[Jean Perras]

On the east side. The park is on the left.

We always said that if the NCC wanted to sell this land—and it has been talked about in the past that these lands that are somewhat set back from the park would be sold—we would take them on one condition: to preserve them in order to ensure the biodiversity, ecology and the integrity of the park, etc. We would therefore be very supportive of that proposal.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, I will return to that on my next turn.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Laframboise.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

I'll give a short introduction, but the first question will be put by Mr. Nadeau.

First of all, Mr. Perras, I want to congratulate you for the excellent work you have been doing for the last 16 years, I believe, since you have headed up the municipality. I had the opportunity to know you in another political life. The Municipality of Chelsea, that you have governed, is recognized in Quebec as being a leader in terms of the environment and protection of its biodiversity. I know that you are proud of that and that you did not fear any election, but that you have made the choice not to run. Therefore, once again, congratulations on your excellent work.

I give the floor to Mr. Nadeau.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Mr. Perras, Mr. MacTavish, Mr. Garand, good afternoon. As you know, we are studying Bill C-37. You must certainly have looked at the bill itself. When I ask you questions, it is to provoke debate in order to ensure that when we take the next steps, we will be able to improve this bill to ensure that it respects the mandate we wish to give it as legislators.

Having said that, I have in my possession a letter from the Meech Lake Association from 2004. This residents' association is asking that parking lot 12 be closed, so that the public could no longer have access to Blanchette Beach because there were too many people using it, to the detriment of the people of Chelsea. That being said, it is still in the park.

Is it part of your philosophy, of your approach as far as Gatineau Park is concerned, and in the eyes of your residents' associations, that private enclaves should exist?

[Claude Garand]

Our approach concerns the respect for private properties situated in the park and their reasonable use—in the same way that other Canadians benefit from their own property. That is the long and the short of it. We have always wanted to have a good relationship with the NCC. It is an issue of common sense.

[Malcolm MacTavish]

I agree with Mr. Garand. The Meech Lake Association is made up of single-family homeowners essentially, and we enjoy the same rights and privileges as homeowners in the municipality of Chelsea, where we live, in the province of Quebec, and in the country. We've always believed that those privileges and rights should not be compromised in any way.

As private members' bills have been introduced over the years, we've had a fear that our enjoyment and privileges of home ownership would be somehow restricted. We feel that we have a pretty good working relationship with the municipality and the NCC. We're largely very happy with what the NCC has done in maintaining the integrity of the park, for example, and in its relationship with us. Marie Lemay is a fantastic CEO.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Mr. MacTavish, you understand that, regarding the presentations that are made during the seven minutes, that includes my questions, your answers, and we are time-constrained. I am moving on to another subject but I in no way wish to insult you.

I am thinking of the concept of a national park. We know that Gatineau Park is not a national park like the one in Banff or other parks elsewhere in Quebec or in Canada, that are managed by the federal government. They are all however public parks. So when associations or movements within a park—this is an issue of private enclaves—are asking to limit public access, this bothers me somewhat. In fact, for me, a park is made up of its boundaries and of what is within them. And what is within them must be able to attract the citizens of Quebec or the rest of Canada to be able to engage in activities. In my opinion, as far as the letter and the functioning of the park itself is concerned, the public aspect is the most important. It is the aspect I want to highlight. I am not saying that your properties should be invaded, but the public aspect is very important.

Mr. Perras.

[Jean Perras]

I understand your point of view. What is written endures, apparently. It is formal proof that the record stands.

I can tell you that, since that time, we have evolved. At that point in time, our municipality's position on the issue was based on better supervision of vehicle traffic. I swear to you that some years on the 24^th of June and the 1^st of July, we could not even get to the end of the road because there were so many cars parked on both sides. In the event of a fire at the other end—we are responsible for fire trucks—the trucks could not even get to the end of the road. We found a solution, together with the NCC. We have just signed a memorandum of understanding called a "process of collaboration between the NCC and the municipality". The objective is to preserve, to work together to plan and to better work together on the quality of life, the protection of the environment but also public safety, which is the mandate of our municipality.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

I'm going to move on to another question.

As far as national parks are concerned—I am thinking of the one in Banff, because I studied it in an attempt to try and find something comparable—people talked about leases. That is to say that people who have private lands—and you must understand that there are not many—have leases. In that case, there can be no development, no further expansion, using that private land or private property situated within the park.

Would you support that approach, Mr. Garand?

[Claude Garand]

I do not believe that kind of approach is necessary because at the moment, we are talking about private property. There are not many development opportunities. Moreover, I believe that would take away the rights of the people who already own private properties in the park.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Merci, Monsieur Nadeau.

Mr. Bevington.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thanks to the witnesses for coming out today.

I was a mayor for a very long time in a community next to Canada's largest national park, Wood Buffalo, and I always want to give advice to be careful about what you do in your relationship with national parks, or with any other park for that matter.

To the mayor, do you have any plans that would be affected or altered if this bill passes, the planning that goes on in your community?