Transport Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2009

[Jim Maloway, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

I'm sorry?

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Newton—North Delta, BC]

If they have already done it in their tariffs, do you still feel that we need a bill?

[Jim Maloway, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Absolutely. because--

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

I'm going to stop it there and go to Mr. Gaudet.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Maloway, I have two examples to give you. I have travelled a great deal over the past 30 years. The first time that I went to Jamaica, the aircraft had been overbooked. It was an Air Canada flight. For those who were unable to take the flight, the company paid for our stay at a hotel, our supper and compensation in the amount of $200 per person. The return trip to and from the hotel was also the responsibility of Air Canada.

This happened to me a second time not very long ago. At the time, I was not a member of the House of Commons. It also happened to me again recently when I went out west with the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food to meet with provincial representatives from British Columbia, Alberta, Manitoba and Saskatchewan. I left Montreal at 9 a.m. for a trip that was to last 8 hours. It took me 18 hours to get to Kelowna, British Columbia. I waited 4 hours in Montreal because Air Canada did not have the right aircraft. In Toronto, I waited another 4 hours. In Vancouver, the wait was 2 hours.

What penalty would Air Canada have paid in a case like that, according to your explanation? According to your bill, what would the penalty have been?

[Jim Maloway, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

As is done in Europe, the bill would cover meal vouchers after two-hour delays. So if the airline is late two hours, under the flights rights, they are agreeing that four hours is the appropriate amount. We're saying two hours.

If I might deal with Mr. Dhaliwal's question concerning flights rights, the flights rights agreement applies only to those four airlines that signed on. There are no penalties. So if you are flying with any other airline besides Air Canada, Jazz, WestJet, or Air Transat, you are not covered at all. If you happen to get on an American carrier, a foreign carrier, or any other Canadian carrier, good luck, no coverage.

But what is the coverage they are giving you? They don't follow what they promise to give you anyway. I don't know of anybody who can find anything on their tariffs. Go and try it--and you guys are the more experienced travellers. How is the average member of the public supposed to know what's going on with the Air Canada tariffs? There are 115 pages on a website somewhere. And you're supposed to be able to read that and understand it while you're stuck on a tarmac? Good luck.

But sir, yes, two hours is the rule for flight delays.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

I will continue with my question.

In your opinion, who will pay these penalties? I get the feeling that, to cover these amounts, I will have to pay $1,000 instead of $600 for a flight from Montreal to Vancouver. Someone will have to pay for all of this. I would be very surprised if the air carrier ran a deficit because of a delay. It could be caused by the delay of another flight, for example. If we are talking about $1 million in penalties per year, someone will have to pay the bill, and it is quite likely to be the consumer. We want to protect consumers, but in fact, it will cost them more. You will have to explain to me how your bill will not penalize consumers.

[Jim Maloway, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

You have to look at Air Canada as an airline that operates in Europe. They fly a lot of flights to Europe. So I ask you this: why should the airline be giving a certain amount of benefits when you fly in Europe, and then when you get home you don't have those benefits? It's all one airline. It's all one cost structure. In effect, you're subsidizing the meal vouchers for people in Europe, who are getting them after only two hours. It's about time you got the same treatment on your airline that they are providing to their customers in the European environment.

It's as simple as that. This consumer movement for air passenger rights is not going to stop just because this bill makes it or doesn't make it. We have organizations in the United States that have bills before Congress right now, and they're going to keep fighting until they get what we're finding in the European environment. Europe sets the standard. It's incumbent on us to follow it, in my opinion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Jean.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Maloway, I didn't hear an answer to Ms. Hoeppner's question on your expertise and where it comes from. Do you have any kind of education on this, any training or previous employment to explain the knowledge you have about Air Canada? I haven't heard that, and I'd like to know where you get your information. It's not exactly identical to the information I've heard from Air Canada, and that's why I'm wondering.

[Jim Maloway, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Chairman, that has to be one of the craziest questions I have heard in my 24 years in political life. People bring private member's bills before this House. Some members have 20 bills. I have one bill.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Maloway, you have given us evidence today about Air Canada's customs and practices and what they do and don't do. That's what I am asking about. Where did you find this information? I don't see it on any website.

I've been in this role for over three years, and I've never heard this type of information, except from you. That's why I am asking where you got this information from. I have other questions. But where did you get this information from? Did you hear about it? Is it hearsay?

[Jim Maloway, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Let's take this as an example. Only two weeks ago, flight 32 from Beijing to Toronto diverted to Ottawa for seven and one half hours. That is available to the honourable member. If he'd take a minute and check Flight Tracker, he could track flights anywhere in the world.

Clearly, if he wants to do this type—

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

I'm aware of that, Mr. Maloway. I'm talking about where they're overbooking flights, etc., and information like that. You have provided it to the committee today, and I'm just wondering where you got that information.

[Jim Maloway, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The fact is that people contact me all the time. There was a national television show last night on CBC that dealt with the Cubana flight and the flight to New Zealand last year. All that information came through my office. People are contacting me on a daily basis, writing me letters, because they're not getting any action from you and your government.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Maloway.

Will you agree that the average distance of flights in Canada is much different than the average distance in, for instance, Europe? You get on a plane in Vancouver, and four hours later in Ottawa, or five hours later in Montreal, the weather has changed. In Europe, though, you can get on a flight in London and land in Paris 40 minutes later.

Is that a fair comment, that it's--

[Jim Maloway, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Chairman, as I said before, if the member would read the bill, he would find it has the same extraordinary circumstance exclusion that the European legislation has: it excludes weather.

Why does the member keep wanting to talk about weather? It's because his friends in Air Canada and the airline lobby have put these ideas in his head, and he just can't get beyond one or two--

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Watson, on a point of order.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Mr. Chair, I would like some direction for the witness to at least speak with a certain amount of respect for members around the table. We've had the castigation about whether questions are the craziest he's ever heard, and other things like that.

You know, there's a certain amount of good faith in terms of the line of questioning and wanting to get answers. We don't need insults back in the opposite direction.

Mr. Chairman, I'd like some direction for the witness to adhere to a reasonable standard.

For the member who is visiting this committee as a witness, I would add that this is a very collegial committee. We have a certain amount of respect, member to member, across the table. That has been the modus operandi for this committee. It has been a productive committee as a result. We don't need that poisoning of the well today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Maloway, on the same point of order.

[Jim Maloway, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to apologize to the member and all of the members if they took offence. It just seems to me that I can--

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

I'll stop you there. We'll just say that the point of order has been dealt with. We are running out of time.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Maloway, my question is specifically in relation to population densities in Canada. As Mr. Bevington can tell you, we have one of the lowest population densities in the world—I think it's equal to Australia's—at somewhere around five people per square mile. It's obviously much different in Europe, as are the distances between the capitals. I was trying to get that on the record.

I'd like any time I have left to go to Ms. Brown.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Ms. Brown, you have a minute and a half.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll try to be quick.

I too want to comment on the geography of Europe. I've done a fair bit of travel there, and it's significantly different from what we have in Canada.

My question is a little different, Mr. Maloway. Would you agree that businesses have to remain successful in order to survive?