Evidence of meeting #37 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was airlines.
A recording is available from Parliament.
President and General Manager, Quebec Air Transportation Association
Yes, I have.
NDP
Jim Maloway NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB
I would like to make reference to what you suggested earlier--that is, in the event of a cancellation of the airplane, you would be put at a big disadvantage.
I want to point out to you that if the airline informs the passengers at least two weeks before departure, it would pay nothing. If the passenger accepts in writing a rerouting because the flight has been cancelled, you pay nothing.
Subparagraph 4(1)(iii) says that if the air carrier “can prove that the cancellation was caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken”, you would pay nothing. And that is the wording in the European Union bill.
Some of the airlines have asked us to look at defining “extraordinary circumstances”, because they want to see some definitions. Only 8 of 16 airlines in Europe have actually defined “extraordinary circumstances”. We can bring those in through amendments.
As a matter of fact, the KLM amendment, which the broadest of all the airlines, I believe would deal point for point with the concerns that my honourable colleague Mr. Laframboise has just mentioned. It is extremely broad.
As a matter of fact, consumers groups feel that the airlines have too big a loophole here, that they're being given too many exemptions. We feel that the bill has to be fair, and the European bill is fair because it has survived two court challenges. If we make this bill too restrictive, those lobbyists, those highly paid lawyers out there, will take it to court and they will win. By leaving things general as they have in Europe—“under extraordinary circumstances”—it's flexible enough, at least in the opinion of the review committee that has been working over there.
But I'm prepared, certainly, to introduce amendments. We have enough amendments between the three parties here to bring in different versions of an exclusion that would be tantamount to what we see in Europe.
Do you think that would be an agreeable settlement?
Liberal
The Vice-Chair (Hon. Joseph Volpe) Liberal Joe Volpe
Before you answer, Monsieur Prud'homme, I know that several of the questioners have referred to some of the people at the back as high-priced lawyers and lobbyists. Maybe there might be a few over there, but I just don't want any of them who are not to think that they are being somehow denigrated: I think the intention is to insult everybody.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair (Hon. Joseph Volpe) Liberal Joe Volpe
I kid you. You're all welcome here as spectators and as participants, so please don't take offence at that reference. I'm sure not everybody fits that description. Everybody is a stakeholder, and all stakeholders have a right to make a presentation or to witness a presentation.
That said, Monsieur Prud'homme, you're at the microphone.
President and General Manager, Quebec Air Transportation Association
Thank you very much for your question.
I think we need to sort things out here. First, there are different types of carriers. Small and medium-sized carriers don't have the resources that the bigger airlines do. In light of that, on September 11, 2001, we had evidence of their financial health: their operations were frozen for only two or three days, and a number of those companies almost had to close their doors.
So, small carriers have thin liquidity, and I don't think that they will be able to pay the amounts set out in your bill. I understand the intent; I think that it is an interesting proposal but I don't believe that the small and the medium-sized carriers would be able to comply with such regulations.
NDP
Jim Maloway NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I don't believe I received an answer to the question. It seemed to me fairly clear that if there are extraordinary circumstances, deemed to be extraordinary by the airline, they will be exempt from paying compensation for cancelled or denied boarding. There are huge loopholes here for the airlines. I don't know how much further we could possibly go.
In terms of your other comment about how much it will cost the airlines, let me tell you that we have tried to find out. We've tried to find out from Air Canada, and we can't find out how much they pay in Europe. They've been paying in Europe since 1991 for denied boarding, and then five years ago the European legislation was expanded to include cancelled flights and chartered flights and the compensation was doubled. I'm not aware of any reduction in service or any withdrawal of service by Air Canada from the European market.
When we ask them repeatedly how much they've actually been paying on a monthly or yearly basis for compensation since 1991—those figures must be available—they won't tell us. Why would that be?
President and General Manager, Quebec Air Transportation Association
Mr. Maloway, it's important to note that our association represents many small and medium-sized carriers. With regard to the economic situation or financial health of Air Canada, I am unfortunately not in a position to respond.
However, I can tell you that carriers in Quebec are quite concerned by this bill. A more serious assessment of the potential impact on carriers must be done. In fact, if no one can assess the amount... that question must be answered before we move forward.
Liberal
NDP
Jim Maloway NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB
Thank you.
To follow up with that line of questioning, I want to speculate with you as to why you think they wouldn't want to give that information out. Certainly it's available. You would think they'd be proud that they serviced their customers well and that they have paid out $20,000 or $30,000 for denied boarding or cancellations. Yet we can get nothing from them.
President and General Manager, Quebec Air Transportation Association
Mr. Maloway, having recently finished my studies in the field of aviation, I know and I would like to inform you that airlines are not even able to determine the profit they make on a given route. Consequently, it would be rather difficult to determine the impact of that figure. The network is extremely complex.
Since we are not able to generate or to identify the profit that is being made on a given route, I am not at all surprised that they are having difficulty answering your question.
Liberal
Conservative
Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.
I take a lot of flights. I'm a member from British Columbia. I fly about 120 flights a year, and in the last four years it has been close to 400. I haven't experienced any of the things that Mr. French has spoken about. I had one flight cancellation. It was rerouted and I was only two hours late coming back to Ottawa. I gave my seat up once. The flight was overbooked. It was an emergency situation, and a family needed an extra seat.
My question, Mr. French, is what is a reasonable expectation of a passenger?We're talking about weather. We're talking about things that are out of the hands of airlines. It could be the airport itself, or the weather; it could even be Canadian Border Services Agency having a problem with a passenger and they want the flight delayed for a certain period of time.
I think we support rights for passengers, but we have to have reasonable expectations. My feeling about this bill is not necessarily the intent of the bill but its....
I think it's a bad bill. They've penalized the airline rather than looking at the big picture and what is a reasonable expectation of a passenger.
Mr. French, could you maybe speak to that?
Mayor, Town of Conception Bay South
Mr. Volpe, before I start my comments, I'd like to inform you that I have a hearing problem. I have a hearing aid in my left ear, and I don't have one in my right ear. This thing here is probably the most useless thing I've ever worn with regard to trying to understand a question.
Mr. Laframboise might have asked me a good question, and I answered what I thought I heard. I just wanted to point that out to you. I'm sorry if I didn't get it right.
Maybe you could get some better headsets. I know the FCM uses the padded, round ones.
Even when Mr. Prud'homme was speaking and somebody was talking, I couldn't hear anything. I just wanted to point that out to you.
To get back to your question--
Liberal
The Vice-Chair (Hon. Joseph Volpe) Liberal Joe Volpe
Mr. French, I'll take that up for a subsequent meeting. I don't think I can make an adjustment right now.
Liberal
Mayor, Town of Conception Bay South
What would be a reasonable expectation? Now, if I went in to buy a pair of shoes, I'd reasonably expect a good pair of shoes and I'd expect if there is something wrong with them that the person who sold them to me would fix it.
It's the same with airline travel. If I contract with an airline to get me from point A to point B, I want them to get me from point A to point B courteously, respectfully, and hopefully on time. When you talk about weather and stuff like that—I disagree with you that it's a bad bill—I come from a part of Canada that probably has some of the worst weather that you wouldn't believe, and I'm sure northern B.C. is the same. I've flown out of St. John's airport when I couldn't see the tip of the wing. So I'm used to that. But I think the reasonable expectation that the people of Canada want is that they want to be treated fairly. They're paying good dollars, and I think that they want to get good service for that. I think that's what they reasonably expect.
So for a family of four that is not going.... I believe that you're one of the lucky ones, that you haven't experienced this with all the travel you've done. I know I've done stuff and I didn't get the same thing. I was told when there was a flight cancelled to go down with 2,000 other people at Pearson airport to try to use two white phones. That's not service. I don't think the people of Canada expect that.
You've heard all the same stories that I heard on the radio in the last couple of years, horror stories in the spring, in the summer, in the fall, and in the winter. So they're out there, and I think that the people of Canada expect something reasonable. They certainly expect no less than the people in the EU or the people in the United States would expect. That's all, and as Mr. Maloway said, I haven't heard of anybody who has gone out of business giving good service.
Conservative
Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
But the shoe salesman doesn't have to rely on the weather for you to buy shoes.
Mayor, Town of Conception Bay South
You never know. They can't get to work some days, you know.
Conservative
Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Well, I think it's not necessarily a good comparison.
Mr. Prud'homme, a bill has to function and be defendable, and one of the issues I have is that every time you don't meet the expectations, there's a penalty. One of the issues I have is that it tells us in the bill that if you were delayed on the tarmac for an hour, that if a passenger wants to go back to the terminal and get off the plane, they can request that.
How is that going to work when you have a planeload of people and two people want to go back to the terminal and 60 others want to sit on the plane and wait so they don't get out of line and take off? How would you determine that? Do you have a show of hands? Would it be up to the captain? How would that work?
President and General Manager, Quebec Air Transportation Association
In answer to your question, let me say that this is one of the technical points that make people smile. I do not think that it would be possible to do such a thing.
First of all, in terms of security, I do not know what kind of system would have to be put in place in various airports to guarantee the security of people who decide to deplane from an aircraft. This means we would also have to remove the luggage of these passengers. Would the time required to do this be the responsibility of the carrier? Would the carrier also have to pay for this delay?
The intention behind this bill was laudable. Unfortunately, there were flaws in the writing or the wording of the legislation. That is why these intentions should be referred to the appropriate agency in order to come up with solutions that would be more viable.
Liberal
Conservative
Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Could you see, for instance, if an airplane was on the tarmac and wanted to take off and the tower said it couldn't take off because there are issues, that there could be court challenges by the airlines to the airport because the tower won't let them take off and they're jeopardizing their schedule?
What I see is a lot of court challenges both by passengers and by the airlines. And we've heard that there is a passenger bill of rights in Europe but there is a lot of litigation. From your research, is that true?