Evidence of meeting #40 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was projects.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Yaprak Baltacioglu  Deputy Minister, Department of Transport
John Forster  Associate Deputy Minister, Associate Deputy Minister's Office, Infrastructure Canada
Marc Grégoire  Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security Group, Department of Transport
Suzanne Vinet  Associate Deputy Minister, Deputy Minister's Office, Department of Transport
Guylaine Roy  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, Department of Transport
Mary Komarynsky  Assistant Deputy Minister, Programs Group, Department of Transport
André Morency  Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Management and Crown Corporation Governance, Corporate Services, Department of Transport

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Merrifield Conservative Yellowhead, AB

Yes, there's some for other bridges as well. The Champlain bridge is a larger problem. If you recall, in the economic action plan there was $212 million or a little over that to deal with the Champlain bridge over a 10-year period. There was also, I believe, $18 million just for the Mercier bridge.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

As for your first question, could you remind me when Quebec's municipal elections were held?

4:20 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

November 1.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

When did the new councillors take office?

4:20 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

They were sworn in on November 10.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

November 10, so 9 days after the elections.

4:20 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

And in the 30 days leading up to the elections, they were not allowed to make any political decisions.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

So the new councillors took office on November 10. They need projects that are shovel-ready. Are you telling me that in three or so months, a new council, with all of the newly elected officials, the new mayors and the new councillors, and with the support of their municipal officers, is not able to make a funding request by the end of January?

4:25 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Mr. Minister, there are 1,100 municipalities in Quebec. They are not all cities like Toronto. Most of them, at least 900, are small municipalities with less than 20,000 inhabitants. They do not all have the level of organization, administration and support you assume they do.

I know there are cities saying they will take any leftover money. That is fine. I know there are cities willing to take all the money in order to carry out work, but some municipalities will be penalized because they did not have enough time to review the files, prepare their budgets and submit their requests by January 31. You say it is easy, just a matter of filling out and submitting a form. It is not that easy. The council has to discuss it, budgets have to be prepared.

I know that as we speak, municipalities are in the midst of preparing their budgets; they will table them by December 15. There will be municipalities that choose not to make any requests because they do not have enough time to do it.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

Are there 11,000 municipalities or 1,100?

4:25 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

There are 1,100.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

They had February, March, April, May, June, July, August and September to figure out what their needs were. The projects have to be ready to go.

4:25 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

In about 40% of Quebec's municipalities, there was a change in government.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

If they cannot choose a project in 2 months and 20 days, then perhaps they are not one of the municipalities best suited to receive assistance under the Infrastructure Stimulus Fund. We are looking for projects that are ready to go.

4:25 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

You are going to punish municipalities.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

My old riding, when I was an MLA, had small municipalities, towns of 9,000 people. I am not just talking about Toronto. I used to be the MLA for a riding that included small townships.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you.

Ms. Hoeppner.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Thank you.

I will be sharing my time with Mr. Jean.

I represent a riding where there are probably about 50 small towns and small cities and every single mayor, reeve, and councillor in that riding is a volunteer. They work full time and they have one staff member, and I can tell you that they were thrilled and very pleased with the process of applying for these projects.

They got it done because they wanted to see their communities supported. They've seen a lot of red tape and a lot of paperwork in probably the last 13 or 14 years, when they could not get funding, so they--

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

[Inaudible--Editor]

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Excuse me? Could I just speak?

Thank you very much.

I just want to commend my mayors and my councillors in Portage--Lisgar for the great work they did with zero staff. They did it on volunteer time. I'm commending them.

But I do want to ask the minister if he could speak specifically about the fact that a year ago we really did not know what kind of impact this infrastructure spending would have. We knew what we were hoping for and we knew what our goals were, but a year later we are coming out of this recession and it's a fragile recovery.

I'm wondering if you could comment specifically on what the goals were a year ago, on how those goals have been met, and on how we can see those results now, not in a small kind of picture, but the big picture.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

The Federation of Canadian Municipalities put forward a budget request and presented a very compelling case. They presented an economic report showing that for every billion dollars of spending on infrastructure 11,000 jobs could be created directly. We accepted that.

Obviously, if we had used the gas tax model, demonstrably less money would have been spent. By leveraging money from the provinces.... Every province stepped up to the plate. Liberal, NDP, Conservative, every single province and all three northern territories stepped up to the plate and matched our infrastructure spending.

The municipalities will always say to give them the money directly, to just skip the middleman and send them all the money. If you talk to the provinces, they'll say that the federal government only has to write 13 cheques, so just give the money to them in the form of a trust. If you talk to the colleges and universities, they say they can move much faster than the municipalities, so give them all the money.

We took a balanced approach. We doubled the gas tax money, which was the direct transfer to municipalities. We moved up the first payment to April from July. We kept the promise to double it, we made it permanent, and we advanced the payments by as much as three months. We brought in the new stimulus initiatives. We've literally gone 10 times faster.

In 2003, the Liberal government brought in some new infrastructure programs, and in late 2006 Lawrence Cannon was still signing agreements with the provinces. None of it had been spent in three years.

It's not perfect, and it's not like flicking a light switch, but I'll tell you that the Federation of Canadian Municipalities had their board meeting two weeks ago and they had a party for the staff at Infrastructure Canada to thank the officials for their extraordinary work. If you had said to me that the Federation of Canadian Municipalities would be celebrating the success of the federal bureaucracy, I wouldn't have believed it. The department's done an amazing job of responding to this challenge.

Is it perfect? No. Whenever you have intergovernmental negotiations, it's going to take a little bit of time, but I'll tell you, the George Smithermans and the Danny Williams of the world put aside partisan politics and worked constructively. Darrell Dexter, the new NDP premier of Nova Scotia, is a pleasure to work with, as is his Minister Estabrooks. We're getting things done. We've had good partnerships.

It hasn't been perfect. Do I wish we could have announced every single project in a month? No. We have some due diligence to do on the projects. It's been important. It's been outstanding. I think we wanted to get a lot of federal infrastructure projects going and as quickly as we possibly could.

This is 10 times faster than the last two programs under this and the previous governments and we're seeing things happen around the country. We haven't hired an army of new bureaucrats to ask where the steel was bought and how many jobs were created by a ton of steel. It would be a bureaucratic nightmare.

The U.S. Government Accountability Office is just a joke, because they have no ability to track whether the information is true or is just made up as people go along. I can tell you that if you drive around my province of Ontario you can see construction projects everywhere, because the province has worked well. Every success we've had in working with the provinces is a success of the provincial government as well.

When we came forward with that model, Parliament said yes. Conservative and Liberal members voted not to use the gas tax. They voted for the budget that had this model. I think the FCM and the Association of Municipalities of Ontario are pretty pleased, generally speaking, with the success of the initiatives.

I've already said to them, “Let's look at what we've learned over this past year and what we can do to benefit from it in the future”. I mean, the one-page application form, the improved political cooperation, they've been incredible.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Thank you.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Mr. Volpe, there are two minutes left and I'll give them to you.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I didn't welcome the new deputy, Madam Baltacioglu, to the committee. I want to correct that oversight.

Welcome, Madam. Congratulations on your appointment.

To either one of the two ministers, on the issue of the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority, CATSA, I note that you are asking for roughly an additional $190 million for development of aviation security plans and passenger assessment systems.

That's about 32% of the overall budget for the entire year. It represents a 50% increase over what you put in the budget document.

First of all, why is such a huge increase represented in the supplementary estimates? What would have caused you to make such an erroneous calculation in the budget?

Second, what are the aviation security plans and how much is it for each?

Then, number two is the passenger assessment systems. I want to take advantage of the fact you're both here. You're not going to be here for long, but what are those specific plans?

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Merrifield Conservative Yellowhead, AB

When it comes to CATSA, you are right. There is actually $197.6 million on this. I explained that earlier. Part of it is to prepare for the Olympics. Part of it is to do the business of CATSA.

Your question is absolutely appropriate. You're asking why we need that much more money just to do the business of CATSA on the basis of day-to-day-operations as well as to deal with some of the capital costs, including those for the new screening. It is because the base is actually too low. CATSA cannot operate on a budget of $134 million. That's what it is. It has to do with the fact that for the business we ask it to do, it needs a considerable amount more. That is something that has been looked at. It has a year-to-year budget allocation.

To this point, when it comes to what they're doing with the money, they are actually buying capital equipment. They are replacing some of the existing screeners, the older X-ray scanners. They are not the multi-view scanners, which we are now replacing those older ones with in the airports. It's so they can deal with this new equipment and deal with security in a much better way, in a much more accurate way, and in a way that is, let's say, competitive with other countries so that we do not become a weak link for security in our airports.

That's where the money is going and that's why it's going the way it is.