Evidence of meeting #7 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jacques Savard  Director, Regulatory Affairs Branch, Transportation of Dangerous Goods, Department of Transport
Marie-France Dagenais  Director General, Transportation of Dangerous Goods, Department of Transport
Peter Coyles  Special Advisor to the Director General, Operations, Department of Transport
Linda Wilson  Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Transport

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

There have been other committees--I'm not sure this is one of them--in other parliaments that have asked for a review of those regulations before they're proclaimed. Is it your intention to sound and consult with this committee prior to the promulgation of those regulations?

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Transportation of Dangerous Goods, Department of Transport

Marie-France Dagenais

We could do that. I understand that was part of a proposed amendment.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

But that amendment hasn't been passed yet. So I'm just wondering whether I should interpret what you just said as a very firm yes.

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Transportation of Dangerous Goods, Department of Transport

Marie-France Dagenais

It does have an impact on the way we do business, definitely. We do consult regularly with the industry, our stakeholders, the provinces and territories. Already in the current bill section 30 does have this process established, so we do consult. We don't think it's necessary to go through another committee to do so, but it's something we'll--

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

This committee would be a good one to go to. It's sort of a Gallic yes, right?

Thanks.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Mr. Kennedy.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Gerard Kennedy Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON

I am going to follow the same lines as Mr. Laframboise.

Is a permit needed just to transport gasoline or diesel? Is that what our neighbours usually do?

Are we going to put people who do dangerous goods, but just for everyday purposes, under this law? Is that what we're doing?

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Transportation of Dangerous Goods, Department of Transport

Marie-France Dagenais

That's not our initial intention. But as I say, it all has to go to safety and security.

One of the incidents that often happen concerns fuel tankers. Definitely, this is one of our.... What we're trying to do here is identify, at a certain point down the road, if there are certain goods, very dangerous goods being transported in various quantities, but bigger quantities that could be dangerous to society. We're trying to make sure the people who transport these kinds of goods have gone through a security clearance.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Gerard Kennedy Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON

I'm sorry that this is something I don't already know, but there are already provincial licensing regimes and they often include dangerous goods requirements and so on. So what would we be adding?

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Transportation of Dangerous Goods, Department of Transport

Marie-France Dagenais

Right now you need a driver's licence to transport dangerous goods and training in relation to dangerous goods. But there's nothing in relation to security.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Gerard Kennedy Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON

With your indulgence, Mr. Chair, in terms of security versus safety.... On the security component, if somebody is delivering heating fuel, what's the security concern we have, as opposed to the safety concern, for somebody who goes into neighbourhoods and delivers heating fuel? Is it that he would misappropriate or misuse the dangerous material in some fashion?

3:50 p.m.

Special Advisor to the Director General, Operations, Department of Transport

Peter Coyles

Correct. It's verifying that the individual at the helm of the vehicle, or the transportation worker, as the act reads, is an appropriate individual to deal with this type of equipment, so that they don't use it as a weapon of mass destruction.

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Transportation of Dangerous Goods, Department of Transport

Marie-France Dagenais

Which has been done recently in Quebec.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Gerard Kennedy Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON

I understand. I wanted the appropriate word. We are talking back to Mr. Volpe's question. Some tens of thousands of people across the country, in terms of whether that's actually.... When you think of all the bulk distributorships that exist in every community.... It happens to be my family business—I just wanted to declare that, in case there was a conflict in this question. Basically, I just wonder about the practicality of giving the minister that broad amount of permissive power, of which there is no further constraint except the regulatory process, correct?

3:55 p.m.

Director General, Transportation of Dangerous Goods, Department of Transport

Marie-France Dagenais

Correct. But the regulatory process, as I say, goes through very rigorous consultation. We will be made aware of any problems or comments, and we'll take them into consideration, as we always do.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Gerard Kennedy Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON

Yes. Just so we're clear on what we're doing, ultimately the minister has that broader right.

3:55 p.m.

Director General, Transportation of Dangerous Goods, Department of Transport

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Mr. Bevington.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

Really, when we talk about those within the country who could be required for a transportation security clearance, it's not simply drivers, but those who handle or transport dangerous goods. It could be people in warehouses. A whole variety of people could fit under this bill. It is fairly large in scope as it stands.

Of course we had evidence as well from the Trucking Association that they would like to see a single transportation security clearance. So what we're going to see in this country is if that pattern that's being put forward under this bill follows, we would have a single transportation security clearance decided by the requirements we have for transporting into the United States. That, to me, seems to be out of line.

We heard evidence too that much of the transportation security clearance is around the criminal record check, whereas if you look at the incidents of terrorism in North America, perhaps in the rest of the world, very few of those, if any, were people who would have been identified with a criminal records check.

We're looking at a system that really may not even fill the bill, but we're going to give authority to the minister to extend this right through the whole transportation column where it comes into contact with dangerous goods. And you know most warehouses are not assigned simply for dangerous goods. Most trucking companies transport a variety of goods, sometimes dangerous goods, sometimes not. So we're going to see this entering much of the transportation industry if we don't look at how we can ensure this broad power being granted here can be limited.

When it comes to Canada, further on in this bill we're looking for anyone who's handling dangerous goods to provide a security plan. So the company is responsible for laying out exactly how it's going to provide security for the work it's doing. Of course, if a company is providing security, a great deal of the security will be its understanding of its own employees. So at another level within Canada we will have a system that will ensure the companies themselves will be responsible to ensure their employees meet a security level they institute under a security plan that will be reviewed by the department.

In reality, we're covered for security clearance for people in our country dealing with our own goods, because we have that under the security plan. We have the ability to lay out the requirements for the company to operate moving dangerous goods through a security plan. So we don't need the security clearance for people in our country, we can do it through another method.

By limiting it to what was projected for the bill, which was to deal with the issue of security clearances for international travel, we've also got it covered under the bill. Even with the amendment, the government will have the ability to ensure that security is held for Canadians and under a security regime that may be more appropriate to the goods they're handling in Canada, to the situation that exists in Canada. If you're handling nitroglycerine in Canada, I would assume the company that's handling it, in order to get insurance, will have to have a security plan that will outline what kinds of clearances its employees will go through, but if you're a farmer moving ammonia around the countryside, you won't necessarily have to meet the international transportation security clearance requirements.

Quite clearly, there are provisions within the bill to cover what has to be done in Canada. The transportation security clearances were designed to deal with the issue that we have internationally.

So the amendment will very much clarify that, and will continue to ensure that Canadian companies and Canadian workers are not unduly harassed by this government in the conduct of their work across this country. The amendment will maintain that. We have the ability to deal with individual companies within Canada, and we have the international commitment that we want.

I think the amendment is very practical. It simply brings it down to a scope such that we, as legislators, as protectors of the rights of Canadians and as protectors of our essential economic system here, will do our job.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Monsieur Laframboise.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Unlike Mr. Bevington, I wonder about that. Safety is safety. We have to make sure that transporting dangerous goods is safe. I prefer Mr. Volpe's amendment, which will allow us to examine the regulations when they are available. That will allow us to ask the appropriate questions. Personally, I am going to vote against the amendment.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you.

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

We go to amendment NDP-2.

Mr. Bevington.

4 p.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

This amendment ensures that information collected by our government on Canadian citizens is not shared with any other foreign government. Once again, it simply puts into the act things to protect Canadians; that's the purpose here. If the government has no intention of sharing anyone else's information, I don't see how this amendment would pose any particular degree of difficulty to anyone here.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Mr. Volpe.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

This is a question for Mr. Coyles or Ms. Wilson.

My understanding is that an item like this would be covered under the privacy legislation anyway. If I'm wrong, please disabuse me of my misperception.