Transport Committee on June 1st, 2010

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

You now have additional information to consider. But you have to recognize that this is after the fact, after a problem arose. The complaint of many of our constituents is that we deal with problems only after they have occurred. Having reviewed the issue, have you come up with any recommendations or suggestions to improve your procedures, in order to prevent such a situation from happening again?

We're talking a lot about Toyota Corporation at the present time, but in a globalized world, we obviously have to deal with many businesses that have their headquarters abroad. What is important to us is to have a government which, through its department, will adequately ensure the safety of its citizens.

Have you reached any conclusions about ways to improve your operations that you will be recommending?

[Gerard McDonald]

Certainly, Mr. Chair, we're looking at how this situation has evolved. We are obviously monitoring closely the deliberations of this committee. Our minister has stated that we would seriously consider any recommendations put forth by this committee on how to improve the Motor Vehicle Safety Act in light of what has transpired with this particular instance.

We're also looking at Mr. Volpe's PEDAL act, which he has tabled in the House, as to how that might help us deliver on our mandate. As well, we're undertaking a review of the Motor Vehicle Safety Act to determine whether or not any changes are needed to improve the safety of motor vehicles in Canada.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Among the changes that you are contemplating, do you believe you should be informed better or sooner of all complaints from all vehicle users and owners rather than having to wait for each manufacturer to determine that there is a design problem that needs to be corrected? Would you like to be more proactive and analyze yourselves all the complaints that are made—without necessarily reacting to each one—in order to be able to do a review and determine according to probability figures whether there is indeed a problem, without having to wait for action by each of the companies?

[Gerard McDonald]

I would point out, Mr. Chair, that currently we do react to any complaints we receive from the Canadian public. As we testified earlier to the committee, we receive about 1,200 complaints a year with respect to motor vehicle issues, and we investigate each of those complaints.

Certainly, the more information you have, the better determination you can make. It's a question of capability. If we were to go to a system in which all complaints had to be reported to Transport Canada, that would obviously increase greatly the number of issues we would have to deal with, and there would be a resource consideration as to how to deal with that information.

I would note that in the United States, they do have a system in which all of these complaints must be brought forward. In this particular instance, it seems that NHTSA was no better at determining this particular problem than we were.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you, Mr. Carrier.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Oh, that is it already? Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

We'll go to Mr. Watson.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank our witnesses for returning to committee.

Of course, you were here a few months ago, and at that time, we were able to establish that Toyota knew about its problem in Canada with the CTS gas pedal before it issued a recall. Transport Canada officials are now investigating a possible violation of the Motor Vehicle Safety Act.

Mr. Beatty, I was sort of taken by your response to a question from Mr. Laframboise. You said that it depends on what the definition of a complaint is. I don't know about you, but I was reminded of former President Clinton when they got to the most incriminating question, and he said that it all depended on what the definition of “is” was.

I'm not taking a lot of comfort here. There's a bit of hairsplitting going on. I think what I see in the e-mails that have been provided to us is a pattern of doing the minimum with respect to safety recalls.

On the Prius braking system problem, in an e-mail on February 4, 2010, you asked what Transport Canada's expectation of Toyota Canada was, as if the issuance of a recall relies on Transport Canada rather than on Toyota Canada.

In the 2009 Matrix, there was a rear-seat cushion problem. Transport Canada officials raised the question of whether it had an impact on child safety seats. You asked whether that wasn't a quality issue rather than a safety issue.

In an e-mail on November 27, 2009 from someone at Toyota—I don't know who, as you guys blocked out who was responsible for sending these—you actually stated that you wanted a Transport Canada investigation on the 2009 Venza issue not conducted at a dealership, but at your head office, given the high profile of this investigation. Maybe it all depends on what the definition of “safety” is at Toyota. I'm a little concerned.

Let me ask a question of you on technical service bulletins and dealer service bulletins. You raised that issue. What is the difference between issuing a technical service bulletin versus issuing a notice of defect for recall? What determination does Toyota make in the difference between those two? It really does depend on what the definition of safety is. Mr. Beatty, what's the difference?

[Stephen Beatty]

Thank you.

I guess the point I was trying to make earlier—and if I didn't, let me go back and clarify the record—is that if I look, for example, at the contacts we've had, simply with our customer interaction centre during the first part of this year, January through April, there are over 50,000. Each and every one of those opens up as a case, but in some cases, they are simply a request for a brochure and have nothing to do with anything else. What I'm saying with respect to the definition of a complaint is that anyone....

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

I'm not asking that. I'm asking what the difference is between issuing a technical service bulletin and issuing a notice of defect. I'm not asking you what a complaint is.

[Stephen Beatty]

We began with the issue of a complaint and I just wanted to be clear that in our view--

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

I'd like my question answered, not Mr. Laframboise's, please.

[Stephen Beatty]

Yes, and hopefully I can do both.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

I'd like you to answer mine.

[Stephen Beatty]

The issue with respect to safety, I think, is pretty clearly spelled out with respect to the Motor Vehicle Safety Act. I believe that the deputy minister, for example, has expressed in writing the government's understanding of that definition. The point is that we may very well issue technical service bulletins that have nothing at all to do with a safety feature of the vehicle; they relate to any number of aspects of the servicing of the car.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Has a Toyota technical service bulletin ever later become an issue under a safety recall?

[Stephen Beatty]

It's possible that as additional data becomes available, a determination is made that in fact it's a safety issue rather than a routine service—

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

In the United States, technical service bulletins filed with NHTSA in 2008 and 2009 with respect to the floor mats later became the same models under consideration for recall.... The advantage, of course, to issuing a dealer service bulletin is that it shifts the cost to the consumer rather than to Toyota Canada for doing the repair.

But I guess the question I really want to ask is if Toyota...well, you've confirmed that some of them may have become safety recalls later. Has Toyota has ever used the dealer service bulletin to delay reporting serious safety defects from Transport Canada?

[Stephen Beatty]

I'm not aware of any such thing ever happening.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

You're not aware of anything.

Are you aware of any of your suppliers—

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you. I have to—

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Oh, Mr. Chair--

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Ms. Crombie.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Beatty, in sworn testimony before this committee on March 16, 2010, Mr. Ray Tanguay, president of Toyota Motor Manufacturing Canada Inc., stated that prior to issuing the recall on the defective accelerator pedals on January 21, 2010, Toyota was working with the pedal manufacturer, CTS, to redesign that pedal.

Do you recall that statement?

[Stephen Beatty]

Yes.