Evidence of meeting #35 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Nathalie Des Rosiers  General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
Mike McNaney  Board of Directors Member, National Airlines Council of Canada
David Goldstein  President and Chief Executive Officer, Tourism Industry Association of Canada
Sukanya Pillay  Director, National Security Program, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
Joseph Galimberti  Board of Directors Member, National Airlines Council of Canada

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

I call the meeting to order. Good morning, everyone.

Welcome to the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, meeting number 35.

Our orders of the day, pursuant to the order of reference of Tuesday, October 26, 2010, are to consider Bill C-42, An Act to amend the Aeronautics Act.

Joining us today as witnesses, from the National Airlines Council of Canada, are Mike McNaney, member of the board of directors, and Joseph Galimberti, also a member of the board.

From the Tourism Industry Association of Canada, we have David Goldstein, president and chief executive officer; Kevin Desjardins, director of communications; and Catherine Sadler, manager of research.

From the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, we have Sukanya Pillay, director of the national security program, and Nathalie Des Rosiers, general counsel.

Welcome to everyone. I'm sure you've been given a little bit of direction by Bonnie. I'm not sure if you have an order in which you want to proceed.

Maybe we'll start with Madame Des Rosiers for roughly 10 minutes, and then we'll go to questions and answers.

I'll give you a signal when you have one minute left.

11:05 a.m.

Nathalie Des Rosiers General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association

I want to thank the committee for inviting the Canadian Civil Liberties Association.

The association has been in existence since 1964 and has been in the service of civil liberties in Canada since that time. It has acquired broad experience with privacy issues.

I'm going to address four points in this presentation: the bill's constitutional vulnerability; its vulnerability from the standpoint of international law, the dangers it entails with regard to precedents in the field of privacy in Canada and, lastly, an invitation to go back to the drawing board to explore certain measures that we will be proposing.

I will give the rest of my presentation in English, and would be happy to answer questions in English or French. My colleague, Sukanya Pillay, will complete the question period.

First of all, in terms of the constitutional vulnerability of the bill, as you know, privacy is protected by the charter. Passengers may have diminished expectations of privacy when they go to an airport, but they don't have “no” expectations of privacy. Indeed, the question of the expectations of privacy of passengers with respect to their personal information is being considered by the Supreme Court, as we speak. In the Chehil case, CCLA is one of the intervenors.

So the question of the privacy of information of passengers is directly under the court right now, and in our view, it would be premature to move under the current bill without knowing the full extent to which it complies with the charter.

Certainly to the extent that there is an expectation of privacy protected by the charter, this bill would not meet a section 1 challenge, because it has no limitations. It does not adequately protect the problems that may arise with the disclosure of information, and so on. So the first point is that there is a constitutional vulnerability that should be looked at before we go too much further.

The second point is that it does not meet the international law standards that do allow exceptions. I have to remind you here that this is a bill that provides for general exemptions from PIPEDA. And in international law, again, in light of wanting to protect privacy, there is a possibility of exemptions, but—and in the brief that we submitted, we refer to the UN committee on this—it must not give unfettered discretion to the operator. It must be subject to some monitoring and it must be absolutely necessary. So in our view, not only is it vulnerable to constitutional law but also it does not have sufficient guarantees in international law to reassure Canadians.

And finally, our third point is that it's a very dangerous bill, not only because of the way in which it's drafted but also because it's a precedent for how it could be used in the future. Let me talk about what are the difficulties and the dangerous nature of this bill.

There is no requirement in Bill C-42 or in the regulations of the U.S. TSA for safeguards to protect the information. There's no safeguard that the TSA will not pass information to other government agencies, such as law enforcement or immigration. There is no safeguard that the TSA will not pass this information to third countries. And we know this has been a particularly difficult issue for some Canadians, Maher Arar being a case in point. There's no guarantee that the TSA will not use the information for profiling Canadians, to put them on their watchlist or the no-fly list.

I would mention to the committee that in the United States, the no-fly list is under constitutional review as we speak. It has been challenged because there are too many false positives arising. The process has been described as Kafkaesque, in the way it does not allow people to know whether they're on it, how to get off it, and what evidence is on it. So that's the danger. The danger is that Canadian passengers, Canadians, will be put at risk of being stuck somewhere with no possibility of flying back. There's no guarantee that an innocent Canadian could not be mistakenly placed on the list. There's no guarantee that innocent Canadians mistakenly placed on the list will not be prevented from flying or from being detained in the U.S. or elsewhere without due process.

It's a dangerous bill, because it gives the possibility of exemptions forever. There is no time-limited aspect to it and there are no restrictions to the number of countries to which it could be applied. I understand that the idea was that it would be applicable to the U.S. now, and that by regulations it could eventually be applied to other countries. That's very dangerous, because there's no process by which we can assess whether the privacy guarantees apply to this information. So in our view, it's dangerous as a model for moving forward on privacy.

Now, I'm sure the position will be that it's needed, that it's absolutely needed, otherwise Canadian airlines may be prevented from accessing U.S. airspace. In our view, if we're going to move to a regime of exemptions from PIPEDA, it should never be unlimited in a time fashion. It's possible to have a process of monitoring these exemptions so they are time limited and so that you keep the pressure on ensuring that the people using the information are under review.

What if, in two years, the TSA decides they want more personal information? What if, in two years, they have lesser guarantees about sharing the information with law enforcement, or they're not complying well with their own privacy legislation? What if the way in which the act has proceeded is found to be unconstitutional in the U.S.?

So our view is that a time limit on the process of exemption would go a long way toward reassuring us that we're not giving up our sovereignty and not giving up people's ability to have their privacy protected. We need a limitation to ensure there's some sort of monitoring about the way in which the situation is done. Also, we need some compensation for the people who will be caught in the Kafkaesque context of mistaken identity, who will suffer great damage if they are left without the possibility of return. So there must be some possibility of compensation for these people.

Finally, in our view, the way that the bill does not sufficiently capture the essence of the protection of privacy invites us to go back to do better homework on this. It's not necessary to proceed too quickly, since the matter is before the Supreme Court of Canada.

I will conclude by reading our last memo.

We recommend that Bill C-42 in its current form not be passed. It represents a violation of the right to privacy. It's not rationally connected and proportional to the objective of aviation security. It's just too dangerous.

We further recommend that any sharing of passenger information for overflights be subject to existing legal safeguards in the charter, including safeguards relating to the use, sharing, retention, redress, and access to information, and the correction of the provenance of any information used to match names to the watchlist in existence.

Merci beaucoup.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you very much.

Mike, please proceed.

November 23rd, 2010 / 11:15 a.m.

Mike McNaney Board of Directors Member, National Airlines Council of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee, for the opportunity to appear this morning to outline for you why the National Airlines Council of Canada does support wholeheartedly the passage of Bill C-42.

We are here on behalf of WestJet, Air Canada, Air Transat, and Jazz to briefly outline for you the operational and economic fallout that would occur if Canadian carriers were denied access to U.S. airspace for overflight. We fully realize there are other issues on the table, of course, that are impacting the decision you'll have to make, but we did want to take the opportunity here to tell you about the economic impact.

During debate at second reading, it has been implied that denying Canadian carriers access to U.S. airspace for overflight may simply make flying time somewhat longer. In fact, the impact is far greater than that. Simply put, air services from Canada to Mexico, the Caribbean or South America would no longer be commercially viable if we were denied access to transit through U.S. airspace en route to those destinations.

Flights from Ontario, Quebec, and the Maritimes would all have to head further east over the Atlantic Ocean. Up to four hours additional flying time round trip for each flight would result in significantly increasing fuel burn and drastically reduce the amount of payload carried. By payload, we mean passengers, cargo, bags, etc.

More significantly, the additional flight time would mean that the vast majority of destinations could no longer be served. You could not fly there anymore, because they would exceed the safe performance limitations of the aircraft. Flights from western Canada would need to head west over the Pacific, and would run into similar operational and geographic realities. The airspace west of the continental United States is one of the busiest oceanic routes in the world, due to east-west traffic from the continental U.S. running to various Pacific destinations.

From an air traffic control perspective, north-south flights across the corridor would simply be impractical, as they would be prohibited or, at best, severely restricted by air traffic control. Furthermore, even if there were a handful of destinations that might still be served, the dramatic increase in flying time and the necessary increase in airfares to cover the increased fuel burn would make the flights completely unattractive to Canadian consumers. Why would someone choose to fly out of Canada on a flight that is now up to four hours longer, when you could simply cross the border and fly on U.S. carriers to take advantage of the much shorter flying time and commensurately lower fares?

Thus, from a commercial and operational perspective, being denied access to U.S. airspace for overflight would be an unmitigated disaster for Canadian air carriers and our passengers. Given the operational realities and the commercial impact, carriers would largely cancel service on these routes.

The economic impact on Canadian carriers would be severe. The winter schedules are already set, the tour packages and room nights, etc., are already booked, the crew scheduling is already taken care of, as is aircraft scheduling already locked in. Denial of access to these markets would create insurmountable challenges and seriously undermine the economic strength of the industry.

We urge the committee and Parliament to pass Bill C-42.

We would be happy to take your questions.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Mr. Goldstein.

11:20 a.m.

David Goldstein President and Chief Executive Officer, Tourism Industry Association of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, for the opportunity to appear today in support of Bill C-42.

My name is David Goldstein, and I am president and CEO of the Tourism Industry Association of Canada.

By way of introduction, the Tourism Industry Association is the only national organization that represents the full cross-section of the tourism and travel industry in Canada. Our members include those who are directly involved in the aviation sector, such as airlines and airports, but our perspective goes beyond the economics of aviation in Canada. We are here to explain the importance of the ripple effect it plays on the broader Canadian economy, as we represent over 8,000 direct and affiliate members across the country from coast to coast to coast, who in turn represent over 1.6 million Canadians whose jobs depend on the economic impact of tourism in Canada.

In the interests of ensuring we continue to work towards a safe, efficient, and cost-effective air transportation system, TIAC supports Bill C-42, which will put Canada in compliance with the U.S. Secure Flight program by transmitting passenger information to the U.S. prior to the departure from Canada of any aircraft that will traverse U.S. airspace in the course of its flight to a destination outside the U.S. That deals with outbound flights as much as it deals with inbound flights coming into Canada.

In this context, TIAC welcomes the negotiation of an exemption for domestic flights as they pass through U.S. airspace.

Flights that will be affected by Bill C-42 are important to the tourism sector. The Americas, excluding the U.S., represent a significant market for us. The region includes two of the Canadian Tourism Commission's key target markets—Mexico and Brazil—and overall, 615,000 travellers from the Americas spent $764 million in Canada in 2008.

Nearly all of these visitors fly to get here. We've attached some information in a chart appended to our submission. If Canada does not pass Bill C-42, the best case would mean use of alternative routes that go around U.S. airspace, and the worst case would see these flights grounded.

Use of alternative routes will mean longer travel times, higher costs, and increased environmental impact. Sixty-five per cent of visitors from the Americas fly directly to Canada--that is, through U.S. airspace--but do not stop in the U.S.

If Canada chooses to narrowly define its sovereign right to refuse the U.S. request to supply passenger information for flights through U.S. airspace, this will change the economic model for flights and for Canadian tourism. Consequently, these travellers are likely to choose other destinations that would not require them to make stopovers or long flyovers.

Since 30% of travellers from the Americas arrive here via the U.S., assuming they take the same type of route to get home, their personal information is already being transmitted to the U.S. before they fly anyway.

The U.S. has a sovereign right to control its airspace, and entry into sovereign territory constitutes agreement to abide by the laws of the state that governs it. It only makes sense that Canada would wish to maintain its access to U.S. airspace.

Taking these two things as given, TIAC hopes the committee will choose to support Bill C-42.

I thank the committee for its time, and I welcome your questions.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you very much.

Mr. McCallum.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of you for being with us.

It seems we're on the horns of a bit of a dilemma, in which two of the three groups say if we don't pass this, there will be an unmitigated economic disaster, and the other party says it's totally unacceptable from a civil liberties standpoint.

Madame Des Rosiers, I'd like to pursue the issue of possible amendments to the bill, as you mentioned at the end of your presentation. You talk about a time limit. Do you mean, for example, this bill would have a life of, say, two years, after which it would be reviewed? Is that what you mean?

11:20 a.m.

General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association

Nathalie Des Rosiers

Yes, there are a couple of possibilities.

For example, the exemptions could be time-limited. The way the bill is framed now gives unfettered discretion to the carrier to send or not send the information, as they wish, to comply with a foreign jurisdiction's law. It might be better if exemptions were granted in Canada, and they could be time-limited and renewable for sure but with a view to ensuring that we keep some control over what the dangers are and how the situation evolves as we move forward.

Either the bill is time-limited or the exemption itself is time-limited as a way of ensuring that indeed carte blanche is not given to the carriers.

Granted, they probably all want to protect the privacy of their passengers' information, but that's not the way privacy legislation works. It's not the owner of the information who can decide to disclose it to anybody. We tend to want to have a public body that looks at whether it's appropriate or not.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

When you talk about compensation for people who suffer damages, who would pay the compensation? Would it be the airlines? Would it be the government?

11:25 a.m.

General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association

Nathalie Des Rosiers

As of now, there's a decision, the Supreme Court v. Ward, that does recognize that when there is a qua breach of constitutional law, it can be indemnified.

In our view, I think if we're going to go this route, if a couple of people suffer damages just because we want to support an industry, then I think it's like saying one house has to be destroyed so we can protect the rest of the community.

So the government should be paying, or should pass the cost to the airline industry if that's needed.

We're not talking about huge amounts of money, I hope.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Are you suggesting the bill could be amended to ensure that the compensation be--

11:25 a.m.

General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association

Nathalie Des Rosiers

To provide the right to compensation for the people who will be affected.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

There's the provision now, as I understand it, that countries other than the U.S. could simply be added by regulation without going back to Parliament. Would it provide you significant comfort if the bill were amended so that the addition of countries would require parliamentary oversight?

11:25 a.m.

General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association

Nathalie Des Rosiers

I think it's absolutely needed, because that's where the danger lies. You need to keep control over the privacy environment of the country to which you give this information. I think it's incumbent upon parliamentarians to want to keep control over this process.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Your second point was monitoring, but I wasn't quite sure what that meant. How do we monitor the U.S. government?

11:25 a.m.

General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association

Nathalie Des Rosiers

I think we know quite a bit about the way in which the TSA is working. What are the guarantees that...? I think their safeguards should be in writing, but at the minimum, we want to know how this situation is progressing.

For example, in an ideal world, you would have an authority in Canada, the Privacy Commissioner, that would monitor and report to parliamentarians about the way in which a no-fly list in the U.S. is working. Last year no Canadians were caught on this, so no problem, but they are changing the ways in which they are accumulating the information. We now have reports that it has been disclosed to law enforcement, and so on and so forth. We must ensure that there is a form of control that we continue to know what the information may indeed be.

In the context of a renewable exemption, then the information would be material. If the situation is not satisfactory, then at least you would have the opportunity to engage in bargaining with the U.S. to improve its system.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Last week we heard from the Privacy Commissioner that Homeland Security is able to share passenger information with other agencies like law enforcement and immigration, and also with foreign agencies. Is that also your understanding of the situation?

11:25 a.m.

General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association

Nathalie Des Rosiers

That's one of the reasons why it is being challenged in the U.S. right now.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

There is a provision in the law that requires notice to passengers that their personal information will be disclosed to the U.S. Is that your understanding?

11:25 a.m.

General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association

Nathalie Des Rosiers

It's not a huge safeguard, because the no-fly list in the U.S. does not, at this moment, disclose whether you're on the list or not. You may think you're not on the list, and show up at the airport, but once the information is transferred there may be a reason why you are stopped. You probably have heard about the stories where E. Kennedy was stopped; an 8-year-old boy was stopped because there was a case of mistaken identity. So that's the concern.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Perhaps I could ask the airlines the question.

How does it work today, in terms of notifying passengers that their information will be given to the United States--for example, if I take a flight from Toronto to New York?

11:30 a.m.

Board of Directors Member, National Airlines Council of Canada

Mike McNaney

For a transborder flight, it shows up on your ticket as well as on the website. We have a general notion on the website that when you're flying to foreign countries, we'll be transmitting this data to the requisite aeronautical authorities to be used for security purposes by that government.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

If this law were to pass, then, the same kind of notification would continue to be used for flights that cross over the U.S.?

11:30 a.m.

Board of Directors Member, National Airlines Council of Canada

Mike McNaney

Certainly.