Evidence of meeting #4 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was toyota.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Yaprak Baltacioglu  Deputy Minister, Department of Transport
André Morency  Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Management and Crown Corporation Governance, Corporate Services, Department of Transport
Gerard McDonald  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security Group, Department of Transport
Kristine Burr  Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, Policy Group, Department of Transport
John Forster  Associate Deputy Minister, Infrastructure Canada

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Merrifield Conservative Yellowhead, AB

Yes. I don't know the specifics of it, but I can get you the details and actual numbers. The Grand Caravan is one of the vehicles that is being used. I know there is some contracting that has been let. There are some vehicles that are coming from overseas as well. This is all within the rules and regulations that Canada Post runs under. We make sure they follow all the laws of the country when it comes to their tendering and bidding.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Mr. Jean has a point of order.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

The minister promised us an hour today for estimates. We've gone over that by ten minutes. I'm wondering whether we can release the minister now and get to his officials.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

I'm sorry; I wasn't paying attention to the time.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

I'll take one question from Mr. Volpe, out of respect for the great wise helmsman of the committee.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

We'll give one question to Mr. Volpe, out of respect.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Very nice; thank you very much, Mr. Baird. I hope you'll feel the same after I ask you this question.

I want to take advantage of the fact that you appear to be very open about what you think the Government of Canada should do with respect to the Toyota recalls. You've given us an indication that you have a compendium of information, but that you also already have the tools. I think you have the tools under the regulations, under the act, and under the definition that the deputy has already said you understand and have obviously reviewed over the course of the last little while.

Your view of both Toyota and the safety of the product it has been putting on Canadian roads has clearly changed over the last couple of weeks. Two days ago you said you were prepared to take a look at criminal charges. I'm wondering today whether you are prepared to impose definitions for safety-related defects that are going to guide the way that your department looks at things. Are you going to order a restructuring of the architecture of the way that complaints are received, of the process? Thirdly, are you going to take the responsibility for issuing recalls for product that is unsafe on the road?

Are you willing to do that today? You have indicated that you have the tools. Will you do it today?

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

With respect to the criminal issue, I want to be very clear. Canadian cabinet ministers, unlike their U.S. counterparts, cannot order a criminal investigation. They cannot order criminal charges. That's the American system, not the Canadian system.

I can tell you that I have a significant amount of confidence in the calibre of my officials who are charged with making these type of decisions. I welcome any advice from the committee. If they feel there are specific changes required to regulation or to legislation based on the facts—not on a perception, but based on a reality—we're very pleased to hear the advice of the committee and to raise the bar, if that will lead to safer roads in this country. I feel very strongly about that.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

I'll have to interrupt there.

I want to thank the ministers for attending today.

I know you have other commitments, but I know the staff is going to stay and continue to take questions. Once again you've made yourself available, as always, and we appreciate it. Thank you very much.

We'll take a two-minute recess and then we'll come back to departmental officials.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Welcome back.

We have new guests at the table. In order to expedite the conversation, as the questions are asked you can either introduce yourself.... I'm sure Mr. Volpe and our committee members know who you are.

I will go to Mr. Volpe to finish his round.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Madam Deputy and colleagues.

As for the question I was asking the minister regarding the whole recall process, Madam Deputy, he indicated, of course, the 1979 court decision on the definition that wasn't included in the Motor Vehicle Safety Act. I have specific questions that I think perhaps Mr. McDonald will address, but that's up to you.

Last week the head of the defect investigations was surprised and appalled--I think those were two words he used, and Mr. McDonald was here when he was using them--at the fact that Toyota was not aware of the sticky pedal issues. Rather than get involved in the minutiae of what the problem is, the larger issue is that there is product on the road the manufacturer had already identified as problematic. Because Mr. McDonald provided us with some information at committee, information came forward that the department was aware of the problems. What I think we would like to know is whether in fact the safety of the customer is going to be in the hands of the manufacturer, or whether Transport Canada is going to assume some responsibility for actually applying the law. As I heard the minister, he thought there was a role for Transport Canada. I'm wondering whether it is going to be your recommendation to the minister that he act promptly to ensure that he assumes the responsibility for recalling--

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Point of order, Mr. Jean.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair, I was not aware that the officials were coming today to talk about Toyota, because obviously I would have prepared much differently. I know the minister opened up that line of questioning in relation to a general positioning on it, but I'm not sure if the officials are prepared to answer those questions.

Certainly I know they came here on estimates. I'm just wondering if we could hear from the officials whether they're prepared to answer questions on Toyota today. Certainly, if they are, we could pursue that line of questioning, but that's not what we invited them here to do.

10:20 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Transport

Yaprak Baltacioglu

Mr. Chairman, this issue is of particular importance to the safety of Canadians. We appreciate that we're here for the supplementary estimates, but we're ready to answer the questions of the committee. We may not have some of the details that you have asked for, but we will be happy to provide them after.

10:20 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Thank you for that.

I'll just finish off. I don't mean to trap officials into a policy issue--that's not their job--I just wanted to ask, on the basis of what the minister said to us today and the documentation he said he wants to make available to everybody, whether you're prepared to make the recommendation that they move directly into the area where he can act quickly, i.e., the regulations.

Obviously the question of resources--that's money. That's not something you can do. The government has to make a decision whether it wants to put resources to this. Pardon the pun, but at least on the mechanical side of the regulations and the legislation, are you prepared to advise the minister that there is action he could take today, especially since he admits publicly he wants to assume responsibility?

10:20 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Transport

Yaprak Baltacioglu

Why don't I start not with some of the detailed questions that you have asked, but in terms of under the current law and under the current regulations the onus is on the government to regulate. We have a criminal law power, whereby the automobile companies have to report to us when they become aware of a defect that's related to safety. That's the rule.

The purpose of the law or the intent behind the law, as we understand it, is that for large automobile companies it is in their commercial interest to make sure their vehicles are safe, because this is about consumer confidence. If a car company is not actually putting out safe vehicles, I don't think their sales will work very well.

That's the main logic. The government regulations are there to make sure that the car companies actually take the appropriate action.

In terms of Transport Canada's powers, we feel that over the years we have a very good track record of ensuring that when we become aware of any issues or any problems, we have been able to raise that with the automobile companies. And they do act quickly. That's one thing.

If we feel any change to the regulations is required, we will look at that, for sure, but I believe my minister has said that we welcome any ideas that this committee may come up with. If you feel that there are things we should be doing differently, or that the law should be changed, we would be happy to look at every suggestion you have--the same thing that we will do as a reflection on the Toyota situation to see if there are any changes required. Whether the solution is to pull the recall power directly into the government and that actually will provide a better protection for Canadian consumers, we have to look at that very carefully, and we have to make sure that it will work appropriately.

Regarding resources, because I believe the committee is going to ask us about resources--because it has been asked--we don't have infinite amounts of money. We have the budget we have. We have the budget that Parliament has appropriated. We allocate that money to the best of our ability to manage the risks we deal with. We are a regulatory department. We have regulations on all modes of transportation. We do our best in matching our resources to the risks we're facing.

This is not an apples-to-apples comparison, but if we look at the United States and their NHTSA recalls and investigations unit, I believe they have 56 or 57 people dealing with 35,000 complaints. I'll get you the exact number. We have 16 people in that particular group, dealing with 1,100 complaints, but our system is different because we don't have the numbers like they do in the United States, where we have millions of cars and thousands of complaints.

So we have to go by the substance of the issue. For our investigators, they really take the time. They're professional people. They're engineers. They're car specialists. They look at and examine each case and each complaint we have. So that's what we go by. We believe that they actually.... They are very proud of the work they do.

Mr. Chairman, the honourable member said that Transport Canada was aware. I do not want there to be, in any shape or form, confusion that we were aware of a sticky pedal issue. There is nothing, according to my professional staff, who know these things and who deal with the complaints...that we had any knowledge of “sticky pedal” as being a defect. Our people heard about this from the car company, from Toyota, on January 21. So just to make sure that we correct the record, because it's very important.... Because an alternative suggestion is that we knew about it and did not do anything, which is absolutely not correct.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you.

Monsieur Gaudet.

10:25 a.m.

Bloc

Roger Gaudet Bloc Montcalm, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a question about Canada Post. Why has the government cut transfers to Canada Post by $50 million? Are you not worried that service to the public will be adversely affected?

10:25 a.m.

André Morency Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Management and Crown Corporation Governance, Corporate Services, Department of Transport

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair, but I do not understand the question. We have not reduced Canada Post's budget. It is a self-financed Crown Corporation. However, in its supplementary budget, it did receive an additional sum to handle the extra volume of mail in the region in which the Olympic Games were being held. Canada Post's budget has not been cut because the corporation does not receive any money to fund its operations.

10:25 a.m.

Bloc

Roger Gaudet Bloc Montcalm, QC

I was unaware of that.

I live in a rural riding. The safety of letter carriers has been mentioned, as well as the safety of customers. In our region, people remain in their homes for quite a long time. Having to walk 500 metres to pick up mail when you're 65 years of age or older is no small feat. There are no sidewalks along rural roads. In fact, Canada Post customers have the same safety concerns as the corporation's employees. Perhaps something needs to be done to make the situation safer for both parties, that is for Canada Post customers and employees alike.

10:25 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Management and Crown Corporation Governance, Corporate Services, Department of Transport

André Morency

You're right.

10:25 a.m.

Bloc

Roger Gaudet Bloc Montcalm, QC

Do you intend to remedy this situation? Will you carry out a study to validate the concerns of both employees and customers? It's all well and good to say yes or no, but what do you in fact intend to do?

10:25 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Management and Crown Corporation Governance, Corporate Services, Department of Transport

André Morency

I could talk about the safety review conducted by Canada Post of each mailbox, of each house laneway and walkway. Canada Post will talk with residents to determine where mailboxes could best be located from a safety standpoint for their employees and of course, for customers.

However, some mailboxes have been in the same location for a long time. If a recommendation were to be made by Canada Post and by residents, I'm certain that the solution will have already been discussed. In some cases, mailboxes were moved for these very reasons.

10:25 a.m.

Bloc

Roger Gaudet Bloc Montcalm, QC

Thank you.

Madam Deputy Minister, what was Transport Canada's budget for 2009-2010 and what kind of budget will it have for 2010-2011?