Transport Committee on March 30th, 2010

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

I had a chance to speak to one of the airline operators just in the last couple of days. They advised me that their crew of safety specialists grew exponentially to 50 or 200 from ten just four or five years ago. I can't remember how many they said, but the number of people within this larger airline organization who deal with safety now--safety management, safety forms, and making sure that safety is intrinsic in the organization--has actually exploded. Is that what you're seeing in the implementation of safety management systems across the aviation sector in Canada?

[Marc Grégoire]

That is a very good point, Mr. Jean, and it is what we like to hear from airlines. As safety was the domain of a safety department before, with SMS, safety is the business of everybody in the company. So more people should get engaged and contribute to improving safety in the airline.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

That leads to my next line of questioning. You've delayed the implementation of SMS on the 703 and 704 small carriers, as well as on the business aviation sector. Are there any other sectors of the aviation industry in Canada for which you're considering a delay of the implementation of SMS?

[Marc Grégoire]

We haven't delayed the business sector per se; we're withdrawing from the delegation we have given. This is not related to SMS per se. On 703 and 704 we're delaying to give more time to fix the problems and issues we have found. We have not made a decision to delay any other sector at this time. I guess the biggest sector that's going to come next is the manufacturing one. Some companies like Bombardier and Bell Helicopter are well advanced in the implementation of SMS, so for them it's only a matter of a trigger when the regulation comes in.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

What would that 703, 704 group include?

[Marc Grégoire]

The 703 includes all the carriers that use airplanes that carry one to nine passengers, and the 704 carries from 10 to 19 passengers. I don't have the number of carriers, but together they constitute the majority of air carriers in this country.

The 705 carries 95% of all the paying passengers in Canada, so that is why the 705 crowd is the most important for the safety record on a statistical basis.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Does this 703, 704, and 705 group include all of the aviation sector in Canada, or are there flying schools or other organizations that are included in other areas where it's being delayed?

[Marc Grégoire]

The 702, flying schools, and specialties like air spray types of operations are delayed as well.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

That's all your time, Mr. Jean.

Mr. Volpe.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you very much. I'll be sharing some of my time with Mr. Dhaliwal.

It just struck me, Mr. Grégoire, that as you've delegated some of the responsibilities for aviation safety to the major carriers, and then presumably down, as we establish a culture of safety--in the language of Ms. Baltacioglu--you'll eventually delegate in that area as well.

What kinds of measures are you going to maintain in the transition period as you essentially enforce a different management style on the aviation companies? That's really what you're talking about.

[Marc Grégoire]

First of all, I need to clarify. You mentioned delegation to large air carriers. We're not delegating anything to large carriers; we're making them more accountable. It goes back to the theory of the safety management system. You can only make major improvements in the safety area if the boss of the company becomes accountable for implementing safety and making it part of all of the management systems of the company. That's why we have come up with the concept of an accountable executive, where the CEO of a company, in the vast majority of cases, is accountable for safety in his or her company, so he or she can make sure the culture change is being implemented.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Perhaps I am still guilty of a certain skepticism that is required of all members of Parliament. I realize that what you're talking about is not delegation but partnership. In that partnership of getting the companies to adhere to a new culture of safety first, in the establishment of a management psychology, if I could just by way of illustration go back to the issue of pilot fatigue, you said earlier that it is one of the factors--one of nine factors--but it is not a dominant factor. One of the issues that a frequent flyer like many members of Parliament around this table will encounter is that of pilots who are going from one place to another to another, and time is not calculated as flying time, but it's clearly not rest time.

So I'm wondering whether, in the transition from a unilateral regulator to one that acquires a partner, you have in your plan a system that monitors a bit more closely the factors that impact on pilot fatigue--indeed, some would say even on the fatigue factor associated with flight attendants not doing their first job, which is to ensure that there is safety onboard.

[Marc Grégoire]

You raise many points in your question, Mr. Volpe, so if you allow me—

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I don't have much time, Mr. Grégoire.

[Marc Grégoire]

Yes, yes.

First of all, again, I made some corrections on delegation, so I'll do it again on partnership. We're not partners with the industry. We work in partnership in certain areas, but we're the regulator of the industry. I think that is a very important point.

Secondly, on fatigue, what we have in our flight and duty time is precisely that. It's not only the flight time, but it's flight and duty time. So if a pilot reports to work in the morning at six o'clock and his departure is only at ten o'clock because of a variety of delays, and then he starts his route and he's delayed in various places, he can only work 14 hours, starting at six o'clock in the morning. Now, other countries, on the contrary, use the hours of flight in a day, but here, for now, we use flight and duty time.

I think all of the points that you mentioned can and should be considered by the committee, by the working group of CARC that will be looking at pilot fatigue in June.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

You have ten seconds. I'll come around one more time.

Monsieur Laframboise.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have here a job posting from the Internet, for a Boeing 737 captain. This offer was from a Canadian company and was for the period from November 1, 2009 to the end of April 2010.

Is it true that many Canadian companies employ foreign pilots in the winter?

[Don Sherritt]

Through lease arrangements or lease agreements, there is a possibility to deal with seasonal peaks. They will bring in additional aircraft, and with those additional aircraft, on occasion, they do bring in crews to operate the aircraft. But when they do that, the aircraft has to be operated in accordance with not only the regulations where the aircraft is registered, but at the same time they have to respect our regulations. So in essence what they have to do is meet the most stringent of our regulations, plus the most stringent requirements of the other country's regulations.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Do we have an inspection system to verify the qualifications of these pilots and ensure that they obey our regulations?

Do forgive me, Mr. Grégoire, but I want to talk about fatigue again. Are the pilots' logbooks inspected?

[Marc Grégoire]

Mr. Laframboise, if you agree, I would rather provide that information in writing because it is a field I am not at all familiar with.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

You are agreeing to provide that information, and if possible, the number of pilots employed?

[Marc Grégoire]

It is hard for us to find that out. The airlines would know that. I will agree to send you the regulations about these pilots and tell you how those regulations are applied.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, I have no further questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

I would ask that you actually send it through me and I'll distribute it through the clerk's office.