Evidence of meeting #29 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was vote.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Deputy Minister, Department of Transport
—our regulatory function checks to make sure they adhere to the Canadian regulations.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
Mr. Minister, thank you for being here.
Do you know what I have here? It's the Air Canada Public Participation Act. I won't ask any questions that will require answers from deputy ministers. We'll talk to each other as a minister and former minister. We know how politics work.
In 1988, a minister had this to say about Bill C-129:
1. Maintenance and overhaul centres in Montreal, Winnipeg, and Toronto are fundamental to the success of Air Canada; 2. None of these centres will lose its importance; 3. The centres will continue to expand; 4. The company fleet maintenance will continue to be done at those locations. 5. The act would have to be amended if there were going to be any modification concerning the transfer of AIR CANADA's overhaul centres to another location.
I know that you are preparing an answer based on what the terrible Liberals did in the past.
In 2006, the Conservatives were still in power, and Deputy Minister Janet Smith said:
The things you are referring to, such as the operational centres, are not only enshrined in law but are required by statute. they cannot be changed unless the act is amended. You cannot get any more of a guarantee than that.
Mr. Minister, my goal is not to say that the others couldn't do the job. But, you are doing nothing. Fine, you asked a parliamentary committee to look into the matter. Your idea must have been a good one because it was what I suggested last week. So when a parliamentarian makes the suggestion, it's to exert pressure, but when a minister does, it's to save time.
I don't want to say that the other companies are bad. The fact is, you are bound by the act to comply with section 7, which states that the maintenance centres must remain in Montreal, Mississauga and Winnipeg. This isn't just changing the oil and topping up windshield fluid. I'm talking about complete overhauls, which must be done in those locations.
If you do nothing, it's because you are complicit in this. I know you too well, and I hope that you are not. Why did you not meet with the Air Canada representatives and tell them that legislation exists and that there is no reason to transfer their activities to Trois-Rivières or to their new hangar in Windsor that cost $21 million and that the government invested $4 million in? We must comply with the act. Your job is to enforce the act, unless you intend to change it.
Conservative
Denis Lebel Conservative Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Mr. Chair, actually, I did tell you that I would refer to what the Liberals said at the time confirming the issue of private enterprise.
On October 19, 2004, Jean Lapierre, the former Minister of Transport, said in response to Ms. St-Hilaire, of the Bloc Québécois:
Mr. Speaker, I imagine that the hon. member realizes that Air Canada is a private company. I have no intention of taking over the administration of the company and saying that x number of jobs, a minimum level of jobs, have to be guaranteed. No minimum level or increment was ever guaranteed. ... But we really have to trust the management of a private company.
Of course, the member for Bourassa knows, with respect to the decisions we made, that I did not need to meet with Air Canada to carry out the legal analyses in relation to the act or to ask for opinions. Having said that, in my prerogative as minister, I requested consultations. I don't have to say when that will happen or when it was done. I will do the work in that respect.
I am not here to defend Air Canada. Air Canada has obligations and its representatives must comply with the act. As the justice of the Superior Court of Ontario said so well in his ruling last year, the obligation of keeping the maintenance and overhaul centres as set out in the Air Canada Public Participation Act was vague, probably intentionally. A judge said that, not me.
Conservative
Denis Lebel Conservative Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
So you are quoting deputy ministers who were in the position at the time, but you are not considering the opinion of a judge of the Superior Court of Ontario who made a ruling last year.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
Pierre Jeanniot, the former president, said that same thing. Jacques Pigeon, an extraordinary lawyer, as the people from Transport Canada know, also said the same thing. Mr. Morency knows him well. I am not being partisan. I'm telling you, it's the legislation. The deputy minister said so, too. Your job is to ensure the act is enforced.
Conservative
Denis Lebel Conservative Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
And this is what we are doing. We are pleased to be tabling the outcome of legal advice. We must work in terms of the act.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
Mr. Minister, I don't want you to give legal advice; I want you to do your job.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
Your job is to make sure that the people of Aveos who are here, and the people from Air Canada who are siphoning millions and billions of dollars from the company through holding companies and all that, will be able to have their overhaul centres in Montreal, Winnipeg and Mississauga. Because Aveos is Air Canada.
When Aveos was created and there was a transfer, the same people were involved. There is something I don't understand, and I would like an answer from you, because I know that you are an honourable person. In March 2011, Chuck Strahl said that these jobs were guaranteed. Don't tell me about Jean Lapierre, former Minister of Transport, who just this morning was saying on the radio what you should do. Chuck Strahl said that these centres were guaranteed until June 2013. So what happened?
When the time comes to bust unions and talk about removing the right to strike or to lock outs, you say that the economy is fragile and that you have to intervene. These people are happy that you are there when they want to have corridors. But when we are talking about protecting overhaul centres and enforcing the act, you aren't there.
Conservative
Denis Lebel Conservative Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
That is totally false. We are there when it comes to what's available to us legally. You know that very well. You said so yourself a little earlier. As former minister, you shared that with us. I would have wanted to talk about my former role as mayor, but I will limit myself.
Conservative
Denis Lebel Conservative Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
The former mayor always did what he had to with respect to…
Conservative
Denis Lebel Conservative Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
…just as I do my job now. I am currently the Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities. The job of minister is to ensure that our air transportation system is healthy, that it helps the Canadian economy continue to flourish and that it enables Canadians to travel around the country.
When we adopted the legislation recently, a million Canadians were on holiday because of the school break. You know very well how fragile the air economy is around the world. For us, it was important to ensure that the airlines continue to operate. This makes it possible for everyone to continue working, which is what we want. We didn't make a decision in support of Air Canada or the union. We made a decision for Canadians…
Liberal
Conservative
Denis Lebel Conservative Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
You asked me a question, so let me answer, Mr. Coderre.
Liberal
Conservative
Denis Lebel Conservative Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
We made a decision for Canadians and that is the purpose of our work today.
I am very sorry for the people who are losing their jobs. It's very unfortunate, but it's a market and competition issue.
Liberal
Conservative
Denis Lebel Conservative Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
The company made business decisions, Mr. Coderre.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
No, the managers of that company are savages, and we will speak to them in due course. The people from Air Canada are savages. They have enough money to give themselves bonuses, but they don't have enough money to respect their employees and customers.
My job and yours, as parliamentarians, is to enforce the act. Will you or will you not enforce section 7, or will you instead change the legislation?
Unless I'm mistaken, you are playing for time because you want to change the legislation. Is that really what you want to do, or do you instead want to enforce section 7 of the act? It's not complicated.
Conservative
Denis Lebel Conservative Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Mr. Chair, we will table the outcome of our analysis on Thursday. It will be a pleasure to table the results of our legal analysis on Thursday, during your meeting.
