Transport Committee on May 17th, 2012

[Alicia Milner]

May I jump in on that point for a second? The work I mentioned in the United States, though, is targeting much higher performance parameters in terms of output and then cost per litre dispensed. That does have a significant amount of private sector money behind it, recognizing that we need to take it to the next level to have a broader application in the market.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Currently, for a typical commuter car--Honda Civic is the kind of example we hear of most often--we're looking at about 100 miles or so of travel out of a typical overnight refuel. What would we be looking at in terms of what they're doing with the increases they're working on in the United States?

[Alicia Milner]

Some of the numbers I have seen were a minimum of four litres per hour. But I think that was sort of the bottom end of the range.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

It is about four times the rate, so it would be a significant difference. Okay.

[Timothy Egan]

If I can, I'll just jump into this.

Recent announcements by the Secretary of Energy in the United States on investment and effort to drive some of this technology forward, which we'd be happy to get before the committee, are a demonstration of the U.S. government's recognition that it's a key opportunity. If we can drive that technology forward, it will make a significant difference in consumer response.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you.

You've talked about Europe and the utilization of it there. They wouldn't obviously be high-milers in their travel. Are they getting a tax break, or is there an incentive for them to convert?

[Tim Sanford]

The difference there is the differential between the fuels, which makes it that much more cost-effective. Gasoline is much more expensive there than what we would see here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

It's strictly the price of the fuel, in other words.

[Alicia Milner]

There is heavy taxation on crude-oil-based fuels in Europe.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

We'll go to Mr. Poilievre.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

I'm going to defer to Mr. Richards.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Great. I appreciate that. It's very nice of the parliamentary secretary to allow that.

I had more questions. A few are related to home refuelling. I have two more along those lines, and then I'll maybe move on to some other questions.

Obviously that cost does make it difficult. I think we were talking about $4,500 to $5,000 for one of those refuelling stations at home.

What about the idea, and it was raised, I think, by you, Mr. Sanford, of a rental? What difference would that make to the consumer, and what would the cost of that be to a consumer?

[Tim Sanford]

Thank you for the question.

Enbridge Gas, for example, has a rental program in place. It's $100 a month, roughly, or a little less, including service on the compressors. Anyone who's consuming more, at this point, than the 100 litres per month will have a positive economic case, with the delta being $1 per litre.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

That might be helpful in terms of the next question, as well.

One of the things that occurred to me was the used vehicle market. Obviously someone who would purchase a natural gas vehicle new, with the home refuelling, could maybe make the case that over the life cycle of the vehicle, if they had it for four to five years, it would come out positively for them. But for someone buying a used vehicle, it may not be such a positive outcome in terms of the cost, especially if they had to purchase the home refuelling station.

I'm wondering if there is any evidence out there on used vehicles. When someone is looking to resell a natural gas vehicle, are they taking a bit of a hit on what they're able to recover? Is it a very difficult market for selling a used vehicle with natural gas?

[Tim Sanford]

The used market actually is a very strong market at this point in time. At that point, people have paid for the actual conversion of that vehicle. Consumers receive immediate cost savings, because they are paying roughly the same price they would pay for a vehicle, whether it ran on gasoline or natural gas. They're starting to save $1 a litre, right after the immediate purchase.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

The idea of being able to rent the home refueller would make that even more attractive, I suppose.

[Tim Sanford]

It makes it extremely attractive at that point in time. We're probably fielding, on average, three to five calls a day on home refuellers, just in the Ontario area. Now it's starting to spread across the country. A lot of the conversation starts with talk of used vehicles and whether we know of the availability.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Okay.

In your presentation you had four points on what you thought the government could do to assist in the growth of home refuelling. The last couple of points I found most interesting. I'd like you to elaborate on them a bit. One of them was to encourage interprovincial harmonization. It seems to me that you're suggesting that the various provinces aren't recognizing standards in other provinces. That's what I think you're suggesting. You also talked about foreign vehicle testing and our acceptance of it.

Can you elaborate on those a bit and tell me exactly what you're seeking to see happen there?

[Tim Sanford]

Yes, most definitely. I'll give you an example on your first question about interprovincial harmonization.

For example, a cylinder that might be used for storage of natural gas in dispensing may be certified and registered for use in Ontario, but it's not registered for use in Quebec. You require different cylinders for that—the CRNs, for example, those numbers—so there you have logistics and cost issues that go along with that.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Do we have a number of examples like that?

[Tim Sanford]

I'm sure as you go through on the conversion side, as you go on the infrastructure side, yes.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Okay.

[Tim Sanford]

Going back, your second question was...? Sorry.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

It was on the regulation that you mentioned on Transport Canada's acceptance of foreign vehicle testing.

[Tim Sanford]

Foreign vehicles, yes, most definitely. When you look at OEM availability in Europe, for example, over 20 vehicles are available on natural gas. It would be of tremendous benefit if you could import those vehicles for use, but because of logistics and because of certification you cannot do so.

However, a Volkswagen, for example, a Volvo—