Evidence of meeting #7 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was services.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Doug Switzer  President and Chief Executive Officer, Motor Coach Canada
Trevor Webb  Member, Motor Coach Canada
Réal Boissonneault  Chair, Board of Directors, Motor Coach Canada
Sam Shaw  Vice-President, Natural Gas Policy Development, Encana Corporation

4:30 p.m.

Dr. Sam Shaw Vice-President, Natural Gas Policy Development, Encana Corporation

Thank you so much.

Members of the committee, thank you for allowing me to be here today.

I share your interest in public transit, having used regularly the LRT in Edmonton, the GO Train, the subway, buses in Toronto, buses in Vancouver, and buses in Halifax, and once I'm through my residential renovations, I will be using the LRT in Calgary.

But today I wanted to give you a different perspective on public transportation, and that is about using a different kind of transportation fuel, that is, looking at natural gas. It is being deployed throughout North America by a number of public transit authorities. It is now accounting for 20% of all new bus orders, because natural gas is abundant, affordable, clean, and reliable. I think it's important to understand those concepts.

On the next slide that we have here, which I am sure will challenge your reading ability, suffice it to say that for anything I say that is forward-looking, as an investor in Encana, or as a future investor, please take it with caution. Now we can go on to the next slide.

In terms of looking at Encana, I just want to give you a very quick overview. It is a Canadian company. We have natural gas plays throughout North America. Again, one of the key elements to our portfolio is that, in terms of looking at providing that for different jurisdictions, we're the largest producer of natural gas.

As we start looking at one of the elements in terms of natural gas, as I indicated, it's not only abundant—and I'm going to show you something around that—but affordable, and it's clean. So it may be looked at in terms of deploying that not only for the public sector, but also in terms of end users. Also, it's reliable, and it certainly is a domestic solution, which is an important consideration when you're looking at fuel sources.

One of the elements around natural gas is that, again, it offers a competitive price for vehicles. This is important as you start looking at public transit, where the fuel costs have been increasing. Then there are also the health benefits, and you're certain to see the social benefits being factored into electricity regulations that are coming out of Environment Canada. This is a big component in terms of looking at “why natural gas?”: looking at air quality and, again, important elements to that.

The other aspect to looking at natural gas highways is looking at the creation of jobs and looking at government revenues through the royalties and so forth and also in terms of economic growth. Again, I think it's important to look at how abundant it is. When we get to the next slide, you'll see a map of North America, roughly, and again, I think the important takeaway from this slide is simply that we have a 100-plus years of supply.

In fact, I think what's interesting is that the new United States Energy Information Administration recently indicated that gas production has been increasing. It is now at a new level of 66 billion cubic feet per day, yielding a tremendous surplus supply in the U.S. Again, that's an important element.

In looking at the next slide, you'll see that this is instrumental in terms of pricing. You'll see on the right-hand side of those graphs that the price of oil and the price of natural gas are at a gap. That has occurred since 2008 and that's what is creating the opportunity with natural gas in terms of affordability.

You might ask if it will go back up. No, because again, since 2008 you're getting surplus of supply, and the supply is so abundant compared to estimates from about five or six years ago. So one of the elements to this is that, as you can see on the right-hand side of that graph, there are possible fuel savings of between 20% and 40%, depending on the region and your driving habits.

Again, these are certainly elements to take a look at when you start looking at public transportation.

In the next slide, you'll see simply that natural gas accounts for some really interesting emissions reductions in carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, sulphur oxides, nitrogen, mercury, and particulate. Again, these are the elements that are driving the cities' clean air initiative in the U.S. A number of the cities, which I'll show you later, have switched to compressed natural gas. Again, I think this is an important element, particularly in large urban areas where you have other fuels that are generating large emissions.

I think one of the other interesting aspects is that when you look at the Senate report, you see that it certainly had some good information on looking at natural gas. The report accounts for 29% of the energy consumption being in the transportation sector, while in fact transportation accounts for only 1% using natural gas.... Again, there's a lot of opportunity to use natural gas for the transportation sector. However, that said, the transportation sector does account for 36% of GHGs. So again, there is a big opportunity for Canada to lower its emissions through the use of natural gas.

One of the elements in terms of how we position natural gas is looking at what the rest of the world is doing. That's an important element to consider. There are 12 million natural gas vehicles in the world, but there are only 140,000 in North America. You have jurisdictions such as Italy, which has over 600,000 natural gas vehicles, and they import 89% of their natural gas, most of which comes from Russia, by the way.

Again, if we're looking at clean air emissions and affordability, in many jurisdictions you have OEMs producing natural gas vehicles. Certainly that's true in terms of what we would call medium-duty and heavy-duty vehicles. When you start looking at what is available on the marketplace in terms of new vehicles, there are roughly 63 passenger vehicles, 28 light commercial vehicles, 42 buses that are manufactured to run on natural gas, 26 medium commercial, and 12 commercial.

One of the most instrumental manufacturers of natural gas engines in North America, and indeed the world, I would say, is Westport Innovations in Vancouver. We have a homegrown innovation manufacturer of natural gas engines, which I think is very important to note.

Encana has been looking at how natural gas can be deployed, particularly in terms of how we might work with cities. That brings in the transit buses, but also the airports and return to base. When you think about all the shuttles that transport people, a very important component would be to look at natural gas. A number of airports throughout North America have embarked upon compressed natural gas as their fuel source for some of their shuttles.

Again, using natural gas in a number of transportation areas, we could look at green corridors, particularly from Quebec to Windsor, and Edmonton to Vancouver, where there is heavy transport, and also in terms of operations, if you will, as well as off-road vehicles that use natural gas.

What we have focused on with respect to cities is looking at transit. We have been working with cities such as Edmonton and Calgary and we're planning to work with other cities in terms of giving them information and looking at what is out there for natural gas transit buses.

But as you start looking at municipal fleets, again, there's a whole host of them, such as garbage trucks. How many of you have been at home when the garbage is picked up? The garbage trucks idle and you get a lot of emissions. If you deploy them with natural gas, they're quiet, and the drivers say they're a pleasure to drive. That goes for transit buses as well.

Certainly, some jurisdictions, as I indicated, are also deploying natural gas for taxis and some consumer vehicles as part of the service component to transit authorities. The incremental cost differential for a transit bus, on average, is roughly $40,000. You get roughly about $11,700 in fuel savings per year, but there are also operational savings in terms of maintenance. You actually have a CO2 emissions reduction of about 25,000 tonnes per year per transit bus. Again, that's an important element.

I think what's important here is that many transit authorities are now starting to look at deploying natural gas for a number of reasons, which I've already alluded to.

In terms of looking at some of the payback, I've provided that in the presentation, but I think it's important to note some of the jurisdictions that have embarked upon natural gas transit buses. L.A., for example, retired their last diesel bus in January 2010. They are now running on natural gas. New York, Washington, Boston, Fort Worth, Dallas, Cleveland, Seattle, Denver--the list goes on and on in terms of the deployment. I think that's important.

There have also been some interesting innovations, if you will, in terms of that deployment. In DeKalb County in Georgia, for example, they've ordered natural gas trucks. They'll use the natural gas from their landfill site as the fuel for those trucks.

Mayor Hayward out of Pensacola said that moving to natural gas vehicles is going to have an huge impact on the overall air quality for the entire region.

Tulsa Transit, for example, is looking at paying $3 per gallon right now, and they're going down to $1 per gallon with natural gas.

A number of jurisdictions, including New York, have gone to that. Currently in North America, between 11,000 and 15,000 natural gas buses are operating.

I don't know whether the committee would consider the school bus as public transit, but it's an important vehicle to all the school divisions that are seeing increased transportation costs based on fuel. A number of OEMs--original equipment manufacturers--manufacture school buses that could be deployed on that side as well. I think it's an important thing to consider as you start to look at a public transport strategy.

We talked a little bit about garbage trucks. The interesting aspect there is certainly on the air quality and the savings and the quietness in neighbourhoods. Many jurisdictions, as I've indicated, have a number of trucks that operate on natural gas. Suffice it to say that I think it's important to look at natural gas as a transportation fuel.

The one recommendation I have--I do know the light's on, Mr. Chair, and I know I'm being drawn to a conclusion—is that municipalities need some support, certainly from the capitalization side. Again, I think the provinces, and maybe the federal government, could look at how that might be deployed. In looking at how it might be deployed, my one recommendation is to undertake a study to really look at how that might happen, at what some of the restrictions are on barriers for OEMs, and at what standards would need to be adopted.

With that, Mr. Chair, I'll bring my presentation to a close.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you.

Before I recognize our first member, I will mention--I'm surprised you didn't--that the gas truck display is available on Sparks Street this afternoon. It ends at six o'clock. It's located between Metcalfe and O'Connor.

I went down there earlier, and I'd encourage you to check it out.

We'll go to Mr. Sullivan.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Your company is basically a fuel company, so you're competing for the fuels that drive the public transit systems. Essentially, that's...and you've had some success. I was impressed both by the levels of savings and by the levels of pollution reduction available through compressed natural gas.

Do you think it's right for the federal government to be in the business of encouraging or discouraging types of fuels? Is that something we should be doing as part of a strategy?

4:45 p.m.

Vice-President, Natural Gas Policy Development, Encana Corporation

Dr. Sam Shaw

First, let me correct you and say that Encana is a producer of natural gas. To the end that natural gas is available for your barbecues and so forth, it may actually come from Encana.

From that perspective, we think there should be some competition in the marketplace with what's there right now. Natural gas has been deployed in the past. The federal government has been looking at incentives over the past 20 years and so forth. So there is a track record of trying to get an industry to adopt certain kinds of initiatives for particular reasons.

I think one of the drivers, if I might, is environmental, but another is looking at how to lessen the cost on public transit to make it more affordable. It may be through having cheaper fuel alternatives.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

My question is, if the fuel is that much cheaper, why haven't the municipal transit authorities adopted natural gas in a much bigger way? What has held us back from switching everything from diesel--which is ugly, dirty, noisy, and costly--into something that is apparently cheaper, cleaner, and better for us?

4:45 p.m.

Vice-President, Natural Gas Policy Development, Encana Corporation

Dr. Sam Shaw

Maybe I could turn that question back to the federal government to ask why you haven't switched your entire government fleet over to natural gas. Part of it is that the investment has already been made in vehicles. Typically, what you will find with municipalities is that they've kept their buses between 12 and 20 years. The rotation of that capital is really very slow, so they haven't committed.

If you look at the numbers that I have given you, you'll see there are a number of transit authorities in North America that are switching out their old capital with new capital, because the technology has changed dramatically. I would say to you that the innovation for natural gas engines has come about in the last five years. Again, that's entering into the marketplace, but it's also with the OEMs.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

Coming back to that same issue, then, if the ideal is to switch fleets over to a natural gas type of fleet, is that someplace where the federal government should be assisting municipalities and other fleet owners with the capital costs, with the infrastructure cost, to adapt their fleets to natural gas? You can't just switch tanks.

4:45 p.m.

Vice-President, Natural Gas Policy Development, Encana Corporation

Dr. Sam Shaw

I think there are two elements to your question. One is the infrastructure. Let me tackle that one first.

I think you'll find that private companies like Encana and others are building the infrastructure to support natural gas for transportation. We recently opened up a Strathmore compressed natural gas station in September. Industry is making those strategic investments to the tune of millions of dollars.

Would they participate with transit authorities in terms of looking at providing natural gas and so forth? Again, that would be a relationship with the transit authorities and the municipalities, and I think that would occur.

In terms of looking at switching over the capital side and incentive, one of the things I can tell you is that the incentives in the U.S. are significant, both for municipalities switching over to transit with natural gas and also for passenger vehicles--and, I might add, home refuelling. If you have natural gas coming to your barbecue, there are some states that have incentives for you to adopt home refuelling to wean yourself off gasoline or diesel.

Those are happening south of the border. In front of Congress now, as you may or may not know, the natural gas bill is being supported both by Democrats and by Republicans. That will provide further incentives. There have been tremendous incentives by the federal government in the U.S. for municipal authorities to switch over to natural gas, mainly from the Clean Air Act--emissions and so forth. So there has been a role for the federal government.

I think there is a role for the Canadian federal government in that area.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

Is there a large vehicle--I'm thinking of a railway locomotive--that can run on natural gas?

4:50 p.m.

Vice-President, Natural Gas Policy Development, Encana Corporation

Dr. Sam Shaw

Oh, that's a great question. Thank you so much for that one.

Let me give you this example. There is a locomotive in the U.S. delivering coal to a coal-fired generation plant, and it's running on LNG. It is happening, and there are companies like Caterpillar and so forth that are working on LNG for locomotives. There is LNG for marine vessels. The Staten Island Ferry is looking at that. Also, BC Ferries are looking at operating on LNG.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

Currently it's not commercially available to a major company like CN, CP, or GO, for example...?

4:50 p.m.

Vice-President, Natural Gas Policy Development, Encana Corporation

Dr. Sam Shaw

It is. The engines are available.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

The engines are available, but they would have to switch their fleet?

4:50 p.m.

Vice-President, Natural Gas Policy Development, Encana Corporation

Dr. Sam Shaw

It's the same thing with the municipal transit.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

So we're coming back to whether there's a way for this to happen in a more rapid way. It requires some investment on the part of the federal government to make it happen.

4:50 p.m.

Vice-President, Natural Gas Policy Development, Encana Corporation

Dr. Sam Shaw

I think that really is the tool upon which the federal government could make that happen to lessen the burden and the risk on the capitalization.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

Okay.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you.

We do have flashing lights, and we're trying to verify if there's a vote call in the chamber.

I'll go to Mr. Coderre until we have confirmation.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

I was just told that there will be a vote in about 25 minutes.

If need be, we can deal with the motion next Monday.

Thank you very much.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

I have to check with my colleagues at the committee level. We're obligated actually to terminate the meeting at the ringing of the bells unless there's an agreement to continue. The timeframe is tight, so I'll leave it up to the committee as a whole. I regret that, but....

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Jamie Nicholls NDP Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

How long do the bells ring here?

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

It's 25 minutes until the vote. There is a vote.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

When is the vote?

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

The vote is in 25 minutes.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

I suggest five minutes for us and five minutes for the government.