Transport Committee on May 7th, 2013

[John Mortimer]

You look for organizations that have a track record of delivering on or under budget, on or ahead of schedule, who have demonstrated an ability—especially in the world of construction—to deal with the reality that there will be change orders and unforeseen circumstances. You look for their track record in dealing with those kinds of things. A great organization will want to have great results, rather than be full of excuses. So that's why we need to figure out how to assess these factors among the broadest group of contractors we can and get the right people. Over time the best will rise and be used again and again, and people will want to emulate them, or they'll be out of business.

[Lawrence Toet, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

To wrap up, you're saying that rather than being in a race to the bottom, the cream will come to the top, the way you're looking at it.

[John Mortimer]

Without full competition, we don't have a race to excellence.

[Lawrence Toet, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Sullivan, you have five minutes.

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

Thanks.

You railed a little earlier about legislative discrimination. Is there any legislative discrimination at the federal level?

[John Mortimer]

There is to the extent that federal legislation, both in the unionized government sector and private sector, allows discriminatory practices against union-free people in favour of unionized people. So collective agreement provisions that allow an employer and a union to agree to discriminate against someone because they don't have union membership status are examples of something that's legislated right in.

The federal government sector is like the rest of the world. There is no collective agreement between the federal government and, let's say, the PSAC, where you have to become a member of the PSAC and remain a member in order to keep your job. But that's not true under the Canada Labour Code, for example. Union membership can be forced by agreement of the union and the employer.

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

By agreement, but it's not by legislation?

[John Mortimer]

The legislation allows the discrimination to take place. It takes place in no other country on earth but here.

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

It's because the other countries don't have the same kind of system. You can only strike at the end of a collective agreement regimen. The other countries have an entirely different system. North America is unique in the world in how it's done. In other countries, people are free to join whatever union they want, but they're all in a union. There aren't very many non-union people in other countries.

[John Mortimer]

I would totally disagree with that.

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

We talked about non-union contractors, and one of the problems we've come up against with a non-union contractor in my riding, a construction contractor, is that they do not use apprentices, so there's no local apprentice hiring. That's quite acceptable, but this government has signalled that they will look favourably upon apprenticeship creation through its tendering processes for infrastructure projects. So that would be a legislated discrimination against these non-union contractors, would it not?

[John Mortimer]

I'm not following your logic in turning that into something discriminatory. I'll need you to explain that to me again more fully.

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

Well, it's because they don't do apprenticeships, period, end of story. That's what we've been told. The non-union folks don't do apprenticeships; it's the unionized workforces that do apprenticeships. That's what we've been told at this particular construction site.

[John Mortimer]

Well, I certainly know lots of union-free contractors who do apprenticeships in compliance with the law.

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

Going then to the temporary foreign worker issue, a very large contract was privately contracted to a private sector contractor, who hired temporary foreign workers from Costa Rica at $3.57 an hour to build the Canada Line. Is this an appropriate use of government money?

[John Mortimer]

The idea that the Canada Line was built by people earning less than minimum wage is something that I, as a Vancouver resident, have not heard before, sir.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

There's a point of order by Mr. Harris.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Mr. Sullivan just made a statement that contractors hired employees from Costa Rica to work for $3.50 an hour on the Canada Line.

[A voice]

Yes, $3.57.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

That statement has been disputed by the contractors as well as by the government. I think if Mr. Sullivan wants to make a statement like that, he should be prepared to lay the evidence on the table. Otherwise it shouldn't be raised here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

I would agree.

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

There was a decision last month by the human rights commission in B.C. that ordered the contractor to pay the difference between $3.57 and—

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Okay, then just please table that before the next meeting.

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

Sure. Not a problem.