Evidence of meeting #34 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was airports.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Stephen Nourse  Executive Director, Northern Air Transport Association
Daniel-Robert Gooch  President, Canadian Airports Council
Gordon Duke  Director of Operations, Halifax International Airport Authority, Canadian Airports Council
Michael Rantala  Manager, Safety and Environment, Halifax International Airport Authority, Canadian Airports Council
Chris Farmer  Director of Operations, Greater Moncton International Airport Authority, Canadian Airports Council

8:45 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Hoang Mai

Good morning, colleagues.

This is the 34th hearing of the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities. Pursuant to Standing Order 108.2, we are examining the transportation of dangerous goods, and safety management systems.

We have witnesses from the Northern Air Transport Association and the Canadian Airports Council. Representatives of the council will also take part in our meeting via teleconference from Halifax and from New Brunswick.

I'd like to ask that the members of the committee specify to whom their questions are addressed, especially in the case of our teleconference participants.

As for our witnesses who are participating via teleconference, please identify yourselves before answering so that we may make a note of it. In addition, if you want to speak, please simply say your name and we will add it to the list for the question and answer period. Does that suit you?

You each have 10 minutes to make your representations.

We will begin with Mr. Stephen Nourse, Executive Director of the Northern Air Transport Association.

8:45 a.m.

Stephen Nourse Executive Director, Northern Air Transport Association

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

I'd like to thank the committee for providing this opportunity for the Northern Air Transport Association, or NATA, to present before it. As you've heard, my name is Stephen Nourse, and I'm the executive director of NATA. I will apologize ahead of time if my voice cracks partway through. It's allergies, perhaps, or a cold; I don't know what is still around.

NATA has approximately 107 members and represents 37 commercial air carriers, all of which operate in the northern and remote regions of Canada. We have operator members in every province and territory in Canada with the exception of the three Maritime provinces of Nova Scotia, P.E.I., and New Brunswick. None of them are particularly northern or remote, so why would we?

Our carriers run the gamut from large jet carriers like Air North, Yukon's Airline; Canadian North; First Air; and Air Inuit; all the way down to small mom-and-pop operations and everything in between. We have both fixed- and rotary-wing operators among our members.

I will begin with some comments on the transportation of dangerous goods. On a per-flight basis, I would suggest to you that NATA carriers probably carry far more dangerous goods than the major carriers do in Canada. This is simply a function of where and who our carriers service. A huge part of their market is serving northern and remote communities, where air is the only year-round access to the community. In many cases, it's the only access—period.

With no other mode to move dangerous goods, people have to ship them by air despite all the restrictions in place. Fortunately, the transportation of dangerous goods by air in Canada is a well-developed and mature system based on international standards. If there's any criticism to be made of the system, it's perhaps that in remote locations it can be a bit onerous on the shipper's part.

Air carriers have sophisticated training programs on dangerous goods for handlers, cargo agents, receivers, maintenance personnel, flight crew, even the dispatchers. The manual specifying what can fly under what circumstances, and how packaged, puts the old standby of the Toronto Yellow Pages book to shame in its size. It literally is a multi-day course just to learn how to use the manual properly.

The vast majority of businesses supplying these remote locations know the rules, know how the paperwork goes, and have the specialized labels and packaging necessary to comply with the regulations. However, along comes Fred in a remote community, and all he wants to do is bring back a new battery for his ATV. Daunted by everything involved, or simply not knowing, it ends up either in his luggage or shipped undeclared, and likely improperly packaged. Now we have a potential problem. Fortunately that's relatively rare, but nevertheless it's a potential problem.

A lot of effort is put into DG awareness to prevent this from happening, but more is needed. There also needs to be some thought on how the system could perhaps be simplified for common items moved frequently in remote communities—items such as batteries, bear bangers, snowmobiles, and ATVs, which you and I just go to the hardware store for without a single thought as to how it actually got to the store.

Moving on to safety management systems, CAR 705 operators in Canada, those operating large commercial aircraft, have been under an SMS regimen for many years now. Initially there was a lot of angst among them regarding its implementation. The angst seemed justified for a while, as at first Transport Canada did not do a good job bringing it in.

Initially there was a lot of contradictory information, resistance from the inspectors themselves, and unfortunately a very narrow view of SMS from Transport Canada, limited to just what was regulated by them. The reality is that a successful SMS program requires a cultural shift by the entire organization, not just the portions regulated by Transport.

However, if you go to any of the 705 operators today and ask them about SMS, you will find that they all support it. Yes, it adds costs and complexity to their operations. No, it has not reduced oversight despite public opinion fuelled partially by inspectors who are worried about their jobs. If anything, it has actually provided the inspectors with more and better tools to monitor carriers while still retaining all of their traditional ones.

However, even with all the perceived downsides, it nevertheless has improved the way carriers do business. It has improved safety, streamlined processes, enhanced quality, reduced costs, and above all provided a proactive focus on identifying and managing risk. Has it eliminated crashes? That's hard to say. Has it reduced risk in operations? Yes. Has it made for safer workplaces? Yes. Is it worthwhile? Absolutely yes.

What about extending it to the smaller CARs 704, 703, and 702 carriers? Well, that depends primarily on where Transport Canada is right now in its thinking process. If it is to impose exactly the same requirements the 705 carriers are subject to, then no. That would cripple many of the smaller carriers. It's not that SMS principles won't work for smaller carriers; it's just that the systems imposed on the larger carriers need to be scaled to the size and complexity of the smaller ones. A small business in which people may wear multiple hats cannot afford a dedicated SMS individual, let alone, in some cases, an entire team.

We see this in the airport world today, where the SMS burden imposed on a small certified aircraft receiving a scheduled service of less than one flight per day is simply out of proportion to the size of the actual operation.

To sum up, NATA supports and endorses safety management systems and considers them an important element in the overall aviation safety oversight program. However, they're only successful if the requirements are appropriately tailored to the size and complexity of the operation such that they are not a burden and the organization can truly embrace them as a positive.

Thank you for your attention. I'd be pleased to respond to any questions you might have afterwards.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Hoang Mai

Thank you very much, Mr. Nourse.

We will now hear Mr. Daniel-Robert Gooch, who has 10 minutes at his disposal.

8:55 a.m.

Daniel-Robert Gooch President, Canadian Airports Council

Thank you.

Mr. Chairman and honourable members, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss the Canadian transportation safety regime, including safety management systems. We appreciate the opportunity to discuss this topic from a Canadian airports perspective.

My name is Daniel-Robert Gooch. I am the president of the Canadian Airports Council. Joining me via teleconference are Chris Farmer, from the Greater Moncton International Airport, and Gordon Duke and Michael Rantala, from the Halifax International Airport Authority. As they are airport operational practitioners at class 2 and class 1 airports respectively, I will defer to them for most of the Q and A component of this appearance. I also request your patience, as we may need to follow up with the committee on answers to some of your questions and will of course advise if that is the case.

The CAC is the voice for Canada's airports. Our 45 members operate more than 120 Canadian airports, including nearly all of the national airports-system airports and most major passenger service airports in the provinces and territories. Together, CAC members handle virtually all of the nation's air cargo and international passenger traffic and 90% of domestic passenger traffic.

Safety, of course, is the top concern for the CAC and our member airports. Aviation is the safest mode of transportation there is. This is said so often that it may sound like a cliché, but it is absolutely true, and it permeates all levels of our member airport organizations.

Safety management systems have been characterized as a business-like approach to safety, “a systematic, explicit and comprehensive process for managing safety risks”. A safety management system is part of the DNA of an organization, is part of its culture, and is the way people throughout an organization do their jobs. Airports in Canada support safety management systems and believe this is the right approach for Canada. It reinforces the culture of safety that already existed and promotes a national standard and approach for aviation safety at our nation's airports.

In the case of class 1 airports in Canada, an SMS process has been implemented and activated as per the requirements stipulated by Transport Canada. Many class 2 airports have also completed the implementation of their SMS, while others are in the final stage of having their phase four documentation review completed and are implementing their SMS process.

As the phased implementation of SMS moves forward for airports in Canada, the CAC members have established an SMS working group to lead the development and implementation of the requirements of the SMS regulations, in order to promote a consistent application of the regulations across the country. In the long term, this allows airports to share information and facilitate the sharing of knowledge for the development of subject matter experts.

This partnership approach also allows Canadian airports to establish and share best practices and provide a nationwide approach to implementing SMS. Furthermore, the working group developed a common system of reporting so that information sharing across member airports would be facilitated and site-specific or regional variances between airports on these core issues would be minimized.

The objective of the working group was to establish and maintain a robust SMS process across all airports with a far-reaching scope that includes but is not limited to the following: SMS policy, non-punitive reporting systems, performance objectives, performance measures and targets, hazard identification, reactive/proactive reporting processes, accident/incident investigation, risk assessment, quality assurance, safety management plan format, communications, and sharing of best practices.

The working group also uses Transport Canada's guidelines and evaluation tool, as well as International Civil Aviation Organization—ICAO—SMS documentation as their base.

Now I would like to make a few comments about the issue of dangerous goods, which we understand is also a focus of the standing committee.

Airport employees do not typically handle the transportation of dangerous goods, as this is the responsibility of refuellers for aircraft fuel and air carriers for air cargo that includes dangerous goods. Nevertheless, as with other modes of the transportation sector, the transport of all dangerous goods in and around airports is governed by dangerous goods regulations. In the air mode, these regulations are based on the ICAO technical instructions, which establish the rules for the safe transport of dangerous goods at airports within Canada and abroad.

The aviation industry and our airport members are committed to continuous improvement of standards, processes, and training requirements for dangerous goods. An example of this is the shared investment by airports along with air carriers and fuelling organizations in the update and maintenance of the Canadian Standards Association standard for the storage handling and dispensing of fuel at airports. This dictates common standards by which fuel is managed and adhered to by all parties involved in fuel at airports. CAC members are actively involved in the ongoing revision and updating of this standard.

Thank you for your time and we are pleased to answer any questions you may have. I will defer questions to my colleagues on the phone as appropriate.

9 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Hoang Mai

Thank you very much, Mr. Gooch.

Before we continue, I would like to make sure that those who are participating by conference call can hear us well, and that the sound quality is good. I would like you to say your names, beginning with Mr. Duke.

9 a.m.

Gordon Duke Director of Operations, Halifax International Airport Authority, Canadian Airports Council

Good morning, I am Gordon Duke in Halifax.

9 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Hoang Mai

Thank you.

Michael Rantala.

9 a.m.

Michael Rantala Manager, Safety and Environment, Halifax International Airport Authority, Canadian Airports Council

Good morning, it's Michael Rantala in Halifax as well.

9 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Hoang Mai

Perfect.

Mr. Farmer.

9 a.m.

Chris Farmer Director of Operations, Greater Moncton International Airport Authority, Canadian Airports Council

Yes, it's Chris Farmer in Moncton.

9 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Hoang Mai

Perfect. Thank you very much. The sound is good here.

I yield the floor to Ms. Morin, who has seven minutes.

9 a.m.

NDP

Isabelle Morin NDP Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for taking part in our hearing today. The presentations were very interesting.

Mr. Nourse, at the end of your testimony, you mentioned that you were still wondering whether the SMS, as they are known, should be applied to the models in sections 702, 703 and 704 of the Canadian Aviation Regulations. What recommendations would you have for Transport Canada in that regard? What should we do if the safety management system for 705 models is not used in other cases? How should we ensure optimal safety on those aircraft?

9 a.m.

Executive Director, Northern Air Transport Association

Stephen Nourse

I hope I didn't leave the impression that I feel it should not go ahead for the smaller carriers. I would like to dispel that if I did. My concern is that Transport Canada, when they bring in the requirements for smaller carriers, do so in a manner that is sensitive to the nature of these smaller organizations and that the requirements are achievable without putting a significant financial burden on them, which I do believe is possible. SMS principles are scalable. Sometimes it takes a little bit of—

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Isabelle Morin NDP Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

In that case, can you tell us how that could be done, concretely speaking? You say you hope that the requirements will be achievable. What type of requirements could be imposed so that things work well and the requirements do not cause the business to go under, as you were saying?

9:05 a.m.

Executive Director, Northern Air Transport Association

Stephen Nourse

I'm afraid the problem I'm having right now is that Transport has been very close to its chest with the requirements for the smaller carriers. So we actually have no concept of where their thinking is right now. We would very much like the opportunity to see and comment on what their current thoughts are in this area so that we can provide some sort of sanity check with regard to it. All we keep hearing is that it's delayed.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Isabelle Morin NDP Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

You gave a concrete example, that of the ATV battery. Practically speaking, can you explain how this works for someone who is an airport in the north and may have checked baggage, plus a carry-on? What verifications are currently done in a case like that?

In addition, what changes have been made since 2008? Before 2008, there were no safety management systems. How have the processes to check baggage changed?

9:05 a.m.

Executive Director, Northern Air Transport Association

Stephen Nourse

SMS is fairly distinct from dangerous goods in terms of programs. Nevertheless, SMS principles, particularly in the larger carriers, are used to manage the SMS programs, so you're always looking at risk.

One of the things you have to remember is that going into a lot of the smaller remote communities, you're not subject, in a lot of cases, to the security screening requirements. If someone tries or not necessarily tries but perhaps just doesn't know that they have DG in their baggage.... At any of the major airports, DG will be identified by the security screening processes in most cases. Going into a smaller remote community, you're much more reliant on education. You're reliant on the cargo agent challenging the person about the content of their package. You're reliant on the checking agent challenging the passenger about the content of their baggage or you're reliant—

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Isabelle Morin NDP Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Currently, baggage is not checked, and you depend on what the passengers say. Is that correct? I simply want to make sure I understand the situation.

9:05 a.m.

Executive Director, Northern Air Transport Association

Stephen Nourse

It would be on the person's word.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Isabelle Morin NDP Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Very well.

In your opinion, is that verification sufficient?

9:05 a.m.

Executive Director, Northern Air Transport Association

Stephen Nourse

Certainly the level we've experienced among our member carriers, of someone intentionally trying to beat the system, is fortunately extremely low. Most people realize that having it on the aircraft is an issue, and they're likely also on the aircraft, and that this is not a really good idea. It's more the unintentional that becomes the issue.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Isabelle Morin NDP Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

In your view, should baggage be checked using optical scanning, or would that be too complicated to manage?

9:10 a.m.

Executive Director, Northern Air Transport Association

Stephen Nourse

It adds an unnecessary burden. I think you're far better off to have a better awareness program along with, as I suggested, perhaps a simplified process so that it becomes easy for the average small person to comply. Right now it's a program that's aimed at the sophisticated shipper, and if you're not a sophisticated shipper, then it can be very daunting. If you could come up with an easy way for the occasional user to compliantly ship, you'd be better off.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Hoang Mai

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Ms. Morin.

Mr. McGuinty, you have the floor for seven minutes.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, gentlemen.

Mr. Nourse, I'd like to go back, if I could, to a comment I thought I heard you make about inspectors keeping their jobs. Can you help us to understand what you meant by that?