Evidence of meeting #4 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 41st Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was goods.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Larry Miller
I guess I wouldn't go as far as saying that, as long as they're just about that. I think the AG's report is broader than that.
I was going to interject with Ms. Chow just before Mr. Watson, because she was starting to dwell on one thing. We are here to talk about the transportation of dangerous goods, so let's go there.
Mr. Watson.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
If I may respond, I think if we recall the meeting of this previous Monday, like this one, it was a briefing to establish.... I think there's perhaps an unequal understanding of the various regimes. Monday's meeting was in regard to safety management systems and the role of Transport Canada. This meeting is on the transportation of dangerous goods and the regime responsibility and so on. I think it was understood in advance that this is what these two meetings would be about.
As I suggested in my comments a couple of minutes ago, I know we'll want to get into the Auditor General's report in some detail, and probably have the Auditor General here before committee, so I would submit that we could stick to planning something like that. We can get into a lot of detail relative to that particular issue. But this was intended, it is my understanding, to be set up as a briefing with respect to the transportation of dangerous goods regime, etc. It's an opportunity for us to gain a good understanding and to scope out, if you will, possible issues we could talk about in respect of this study coming up.
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
Specifically on this point of order, the 2011 AG report, as well as the December 2006 departmental report and the 2013 AG report are on the transportation of dangerous products. I will refrain from asking about a national risk-based inspection plan, compliance monitoring, follow-up, high-risk organizations, performance measures, or even emergency response assistance plans and all of that. I will refrain from asking all of those questions that deal with the safe transportation of goods and I will focus on safety management systems, if you prefer. There are a lot of questions about safety management systems. If you want to keep the dangerous products for other meetings—
Conservative
Conservative
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
Let me try the next thing. My question was whether you would be able to table a national risk-based compliance inspection plan. I don't know whether it deals with the AG report.
Is it in order, before I go on?
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
It's fine?
Will you be able to table such a national risk-based compliance inspection plan? It would be a comprehensive plan showing which products are high risk and which are low risk, how you determine that, and how often you inspect.... You don't have to answer that, because it's a long question and I have only seven minutes. Do you have such a national plan? If you do, would you be able to table it?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
Certainly, we have a detailed inspection plan for the TDG directorate, which is based on risk. I think we could probably provide you with the risk management framework we have for determining what the plan is, and we can certainly provide for this committee what our inspection plan is for the coming year, if that's what the committee would wish us to do.
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
Thank you.
On the safety management system, why can't you tell municipalities or the first responders, whether it be fire, ambulance, or police, what is in those tank cars before they arrive in a community? Right now, according to the announcement that came out last week, you're going to tell them after the train has departed. Why can't you tell them ahead of time or when they arrive if they're dangerous products? Also, why can't you tell them the safety protocol for these dangerous goods if there's a derailment, so that the firefighters, for example, or the EMS would know the safety protocol of these companies if something goes wrong? If they don't know, they are guessing. If they don't know what's in the tank cars, then they don't know how to respond, and if they don't know the safety protocol of that rail company, it's hard for them to immediately react to dealing with that crisis.
The first responders or the mayors have been saying we need to know as the trains are coming in, and we also need to know the safety protocol. In the case of Lac-Mégantic, I'm not sure the firefighters knew they were supposed to switch the engine back on so that the air brakes would be engaged again. I'm not sure they know the protocol of that company, MMA. If MMA safety protocols are not shared with them, how are the firefighters to know whether they should or shouldn't turn the engine back on? Why keep it secret?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
Certainly it's not secret, Mr. Chair. As we indicated in our protective direction—I believe we explained this at the last meeting as well—the volumes of dangerous goods transported doesn't change that quickly through a given community. When we designed the protective direction, we all sat down at the table with the Railway Association of Canada and the Federation of Canadian Municipalities and asked the best way for us to make this information available. After that consultation it was agreed that the best way would be to do it on a historical basis, because the amount of goods and the volumes don't change appreciably on a day-to-day basis. That would give the municipalities the information they need to be able to respond to whatever is travelling through their communities.
That being said, and the protective direction indicates this, if the type of dangerous goods travelling through a community change appreciably, it is incumbent upon the railway company to advise the municipality how it's changed. With respect to providing information to the municipalities or the firefighters, Madame Dagenais talked to you about our CANUTEC, which is a 24-hour centre, a resource available to firefighters at any time, to provide them with the latest information on the best way to respond to a dangerous goods incident and to provide continuous information to them. During the Lac-Mégantic incident, they were on the line with the firefighters who were there, and they are a well-used and invaluable resource for the firefighting community across the country.
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
Mayor Nenshi, for example, was saying that his team wasn't able to immediately find out from Transport Canada—they found out from the rail companies—what was in the tank cars that were coming across the bridge, and also, the company's safety management system.... You're saying there is a place where they could find out 24/7 the safety management system of...in that case I think it was CP; they could immediately find out what's in that tank car that has gotten into trouble, and his team would have immediately gotten the information he needed, right? He just didn't know about it. Was that the problem?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
Maybe the mayor doesn't know about it, but I'm sure his fire department would know about. I can't say for certain whether they contacted us in the Bonnybrook event.
Certainly, whenever there is an incident, if a municipality wants to know what's on the consist of that train in terms of dangerous goods, that can be provided to them on a real-time basis as much as we can get it. Obviously, we have to get that from the railways, but the system works fairly well.
Conservative
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you very much for being here again, folks.
If I might ask, is crude oil a dangerous good?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
Yes, it is.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
And are the different forms of crude oil all categorized or classified as dangerous goods in one form or another?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
Yes, they are.
Director General, Transportation of Dangerous Goods, Department of Transport
There's a flashpoint and there's volatility. There are some types that are the thickest type of petroleum crude coming out of some of the soil that they've expected would not be classified as a dangerous good, but most of them, right now, are classified as dangerous goods.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
In your deck you talk about international representation, and your bullet says that extensive collaboration exists between Canada and the United States on different aspects of the program to facilitate cross-border shipments.
I understand the minister issued a directive in October addressing the whole question of flashpoint and boiling point. Is that correct?
In the last meeting, I asked you questions about a report in last Saturday's Globe and Mail that was very concerning for Canadians. Now we're talking today about the transportation of dangerous goods. Can you help us understand what Canadians are to make of things like this:
The Globe and Mail has uncovered evidence that oil shippers are exploiting the wording of a recent federal order by Transport Canada and sending most of their crude over the rails without checking first how explosive it is, and whether it is suitable for transporting on trains.
The order requires shippers to test any crude sent by rail. So far, so good. Correct? Is that the directive?
Director General, Transportation of Dangerous Goods, Department of Transport
The directive asks that every shipment be tested and classified before it's put on rail. On the other hand, any product that would be tested and classified would be able to be shipped by rail. There's no product that wouldn't be able to be shipped by rail.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
The Globe goes on to say that:
...industry insiders in North Dakota told The Globe that very little oil is being tested, and that operating procedures remain mostly unchanged from before the Lac-Mégantic disaster, due to gaping holes in the “protective direction” issued by Ottawa.
What are Canadians to make of this report?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
We saw the report in The Globe, and that's concerning to us as well. What's more concerning is that the sources in that are not attributable to anyone other than nebulous industry insiders.
We have an inspection program, and we will verify that goods have, indeed, been classified recently as per the order. If we find that goods haven't been classified as required under the order, then we won't hesitate to take enforcement action, if that's required.