Evidence of meeting #6 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 41st Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was audit.
A video is available from Parliament.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
It certainly was not part of our audit.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
If you were examining the audit, knowing there had been five ministers in less than eight years, what bearing do you think that would have?
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
Mr. Chair, I think it's completely relevant to the performance of the department when it comes to rail safety, because ultimate accountability for the department is with the minister, if I understand our parliamentary democratic system, and by extension with the Prime Minister, as the prime minister among ministers in cabinet. So I think this is an important question. I'd like Mr. Ferguson to help us understand as parliamentarians what bearing having five ministers in less than eight years would have on continuity—
Conservative
Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON
I don't think this line of questioning about the political situation, about ministers, about the Prime Minister is appropriate at committee when we have officials, particularly an official from such an objective office as the Auditor General.
Conservative
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
We can debate off camera, Mr. Chair, whether that's a point of order or not.
Conservative
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
My view is that it's not a point of order, but we can talk about that later.
The government will have been in power for eight years in January. Would senior management continuity in a department like Transport Canada have a bearing on the ability to deal with rail safety? Reading your report for the third time, Mr. Ferguson, rail safety in this country is in crisis.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Larry Miller
You're out of time. Perhaps you'd let them answer, Mr. McGuinty.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
It's not really a question I can answer, Mr. Chair, because the impact of senior management was not part of this particular audit. It's not really a question I can answer.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
That was an interesting shift in Mr. McGuinty's questions. Let me redirect. Does the Conservative government conduct a single inspection of rail track, to the best of your knowledge?
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I think this line of questioning is out of order. It refers to the political regime that we've just ruled out of order.
If you want to perhaps examine this, I think it speaks to Conservative politics, Conservative Party, Conservative responsibility.
I think we've heard, and your ruling is clear on this, that this is something that's outside the ambit of the line of questioning.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
Well, I'm looking, and I don't see any references, by the way....
If I could answer the question for you, or you could answer it yourself. For example, on page 13, you say:
The Department has made significant progress in implementing many of the Review Panel’s recommendations.
And you mention on page 12 the following:
...the Department has a process to identify and analyze safety issues, and to propose solutions.
...the Department worked with the industry to analyze the recommendations, identify solutions, and take action to implement them.
The Department was aware of most of the concerns raised by stakeholders because it works closely with the industry to keep abreast of new developments and important safety issues.
You have some thoughts on the Transportation Safety Board and its responsibilities. In every one of these...so Mr. McGuinty's line of questioning in some respects is absurd.
But let me move on and ask you some further questions. In reviewing Transport Canada's documentation related to their audits of safety management systems, even the focused ones, do you know at least some of what is in the SMS of CN or CP?
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
This is what we would have done. We would have looked at the files related to any audits that Transport Canada had done related to particular federal railway organizations. But I cannot speak to the results or the systems that are in place in any particular federal railway.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
All right.
You've given us a number of helpful recommendations. Transport Canada, as you've indicated, has proposed some sort of a work plan. This committee, I presume, will be asking Transport Canada for it, if they're not forthcoming with it, so that we can see it. I'm hoping that plan will prioritize which of the recommendations to address in most urgent order.
I would like to ask your opinion here. Is there a priority ranking to the recommendations, or do you have any guidance to offer this committee or Transport Canada on which of the recommendations, important as they all are, should be addressed first sequentially, or have greatest urgency or priority?
If everything is a priority, then nothing is a priority. Is there a sense of which would one be most urgent to address?
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
We didn't go through and rank the recommendations from that point of view.
I think the other thing to remember is that our recommendations are at a fairly high level. We would expect that as Transport Canada puts in place its action plan, one of the things it would do would be to prioritize what needs to be done first.
Really, I think what I would do is look at how they've set the priorities and then question that so that they can defend how they've set the priorities.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
Very good.
The minister has indicated publicly that she'd be more than happy to have you and your office come back in due course to assess the progress of Transport Canada against its recommendations. I presume you'll accept the invitation.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
We do follow-up audits from time to time on a number of different areas. Certainly this is one area that I would say we will seriously consider doing a follow-up audit on.