Transport Committee on Sept. 24th, 2018

[Bruce Graham]

Certainly, when we see a delay in our industry, it's because of access to docks—for example, if the dock already has a ship on it. Investment in infrastructure would allow for better access within the system.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I have one final question, then I'll return the remainder of the time to Mr. Iacono.

Captain Burgess, there's been some talk about consolidating the management of pilotage authorities across the country. What do you see as being the benefits or perhaps drawbacks to that?

[Capt Mike Burgess]

I won't go into great detail on that. Our views on it are public. We don't see benefits in it. Each region supplies its own expertise. As I mentioned to Mr. Jeneroux, the Pacific has its own expertise out there. The Great Lakes have their own expertise. They're different systems, and they're different in the way they operate.

There have been studies on the financial gains that would result from that, and they're minimal. The loss of local expertise would be a great concern to the safety that's provided by the local knowledge. Pilots provide the local knowledge on the ships, but each authority provides its own local expertise in the region they govern.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for being here this morning.

My first question is for Mr. Given.

Maritime transport is carried out by cargo ships, but it also involves personnel who ensure that the ship travels from point A to point B.

What are the particularities of Canadian sailors in terms of maritime transport compared to their American counterparts?

[James Given]

When you look at the differences, the Great Lakes are the greatest difference. It's the confined waters, the spaces that we operate in, and then if you look at the Arctic, it's the harsh conditions that our seafarers would work in there. The United States is different in that they have the Jones Act, which is the gold standard in cabotage.

In Canada now, with our cabotage regime, and coming through some of the issues with Bill C-49 and making sure that we have everything in place to maintain our cabotage, we've launched an initiative of over $2 million to train our seafarers to make sure that they are the best in the world and that they operate within the confined waters of Canada to the best of their ability.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

I have two questions for you, and you can answer them in whichever order you choose.

What are the current labour requirements for efficient maritime transportation in Canada?

What impact do the changes to the temporary foreign worker program have on the union?

[James Given]

When you look at the needs of the seafarers right now in Canada, that's why we launched the initiative. It's because we do need another 300 to 400 seafarers in order to fill the gaps that are going to be coming up with retirements and through attrition within the industry. We think we've been able to do that fairly well.

With the changes to the temporary foreign worker program, that initiative and the policy that's now in place is simply a “Canada first” policy, where for any ship coming in that comes in under a waiver from Transport Canada to operate, because there are no Canadian ships, the crew on that ship have to go through the process. The labour unions in the country will be contacted to see if we have Canadian seafarers available. If we don't, then the foreign seafarer would come in with a permit.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Now we will move over to Mr. Aubin.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I would like to thank each of the witnesses for being with us today.

I will start with you, Mr. Burgess. First of all, I was very impressed by the assessment you made: 50,000 pilotage agreements per year and an incident rate of not quite zero.

This summer, in need of reading, I picked up the Grégoire report, which raised a number of issues.

When we talk about improving the economy through economic corridors, I have the impression that we often try to increase the speed and fluidity of transportation. Security is treated as another element, just as important, but different. I have the impression that the two go hand in hand.

If there are zero incidents on the seaway, or something like that, it increases fluidity. As soon as there is an incident, the corridor is congested for an indefinite period of time. It seems to me that a number of the measures proposed in the Grégoire report go against this, particularly when it comes to offering a competitive market for pilots.

I don't know if such a market exists or ever existed; it's up to you to tell me. If there were a competitive system of pilots on the St. Lawrence and the Great Lakes, in your opinion, would there be a risk that a pilot would lose his independence under pressure from a shipowner?

[Capt Mike Burgess]

Thank you.

Those were some very good questions.

First of all, I have to correct on the “not quite zero”. We're close to that. We strive for that, for zero incidents, but the 99.9%.... There are a few minor ones, but absolutely, when you're questioning what would happen if the government was to follow the recommendation by Mr. Grégoire, it would certainly affect safety. The complete basis of pilotage and why we're able to provide such a safe service is that we are free from commercial pressures, and that one recommendation would certainly put that at risk. We're also quite confident that Transport Canada and the government will use their good judgment and not put something forward that would put safety at risk like that.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Are there portions along this corridor that are risk-free, or does each area require a detailed knowledge of the environment?

[Capt Mike Burgess]

The whole area of the Great Lakes is compulsory pilotage. Some areas may be less at risk for the open lake passages going across, but the system is not.... Even if they were to consider something like that, the system is not set up for that. It's financially cheaper to keep a pilot on board all the way from Sault Ste. Marie up to Thunder Bay, because there's no pilot boat service that could come out as far. It would be an increase in cost anyway. But there are risk areas that the pilots provide safety for, and we're up in the wheelhouse to make sure that things go safely.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

My next question is for Mr. Given. It has to do with what I call false good ideas. I'm not saying it is, but that's what I'd like to check.

Foreign shipowners have been allowed to transport empty containers from one port to another. Does this have a direct impact on the jobs of Canadian seafarers? Are we able to protect these jobs?

I imagine that the employability conditions of the various seafarers are quite diversified. Can you give us a picture of the working conditions of a Canadian seafarer compared to a foreign seafarer?

[James Given]

On the movement of empty containers, through the consultations with the government, I think it was a reasonable compromise on behalf of the Canadian industry. It was a piece of the industry that no one was doing. You don't want to see empty containers parked in every port, so they have to be moved. I think the compromise was good. The government listened and we came to that agreement.

I just want to address Canadian cabotage. One of the misconceptions about cabotage is that it's unique. It's not unique. So many countries have it. Chris, if you could give us the stats on it, I think it will clarify a few things on Canadian cabotage.

[Chris Given]

Sure. Thank you.

This is good timing. Tomorrow there is going to be a study released by Seafarers' Rights International, which is a London, U.K.-based organization. They were commissioned by the ITF to do an independent study on cabotage laws in the world. What they found is that, out of 140 UN nations, there are currently 91 that have cabotage regulations. Those are a lot of the countries that Canada trades with. That's 65% of the countries out of the 140 that were surveyed.

Cabotage is really spread throughout the world. Geographically, 80% of the world's coastlines are protected by domestic cabotage regulations, and 28 out of the 40 countries that are represented on the IMO council have them as well.

[James Given]

To summarize, the difference between a foreign seafarer and a Canadian seafarer is about $14 an hour. That's the only difference. There's no difference in the work they do, other than the regulations in Canada, of course.

We have our social systems. We have our social nets. We have a certain level of living, and that's what the wages are based on. A Canadian seafarer would make $26 an hour, and a foreign seafarer doing exactly the same job on exactly the same ship would make about two dollars an hour.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

The clerk likes me to keep track of time here rather than have a free-for-all.

Mr. Badawey.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm going to ask you a few questions and then give you guys the time to fill in the blanks following that.

It was mentioned earlier that the seaway is at 50% capacity. Also mentioned was the need to integrate. I believe it was Bruce who talked about integrating the supply chain.

I have to say this. It was Ken who leaned over to me and said that it seems like, in the last two sessions we had, everybody has been working in their little silos versus having a broader strategic plan that takes advantage of all the partners.

With that in mind, including the lack of workforce, the need for further training in safety, the need for a broader picture that looks at the supply chain, and of course, the methods that help fluidity within the supply chain vis-à-vis transportation, my question to all of you is this. What can you contribute to that overall bigger picture from your own teams, adding to the robust trade quarter or strengthening the trade quarter that we have available here in Niagara-Hamilton and the southwestern part of Ontario? How can we strengthen the economic cluster utilizing its stronger multimodal integrated systems? As well, can you speak of the specifics that you guys deal with on a daily basis that can contribute to that overall strategic plan?

We'll start off with James.

[James Given]

Thank you. It's a great question.

We met several years ago. We have maritime port councils, which are us, the teamsters and different unions that operate marine, rail and trucking, the whole scenario. During the meeting we had several years ago, we looked at the possibility of that intermodal method of moving cargo through the system. All of the unions agreed that, in order to get things running and get things maintained, we have to look at compromises. We have to look at long-term labour agreements and we have to look at stability.

When it comes to labour, labour is all on board. We want to see it get done. We see we're missing the boat—pardon the pun. Right now we see containers moving straight through the canal into the Port of Cleveland at a lower rate.

When we look at transshipments, when we look at the Port of Montreal, which container-wise is full, we have to move those containers to this area and give us the opportunity to then ship them by rail or truck down into the U.S. Midwest. We can do that more cheaply and probably more efficiently than they do bringing them on the east coast of the United States. Excuse me, my U.S. partners.

That's how we see labour playing a role. We want long-term agreements in place in order to move the logistics hub along, to get things moving, to get things rolling and to make sure that it's stable. We're committed to doing it. You can't face a situation where you have labour trouble every few years.

[Capt Mike Burgess]

Pilots across Canada participate in development of ports. We look at all the safety factors. We run simulators to make sure it can be done safely and to help with input on design of the docks to make sure it can be maximized for the size of ship and what kind of ship can go in there. We're all on board.

As I've mentioned, we stay free of commercial pressure, but that doesn't stop us from providing our expertise on the development of ports. On the Great Lakes, when I hear talk of possibilities for developing docks in the Welland Canal, there's lots of room for improvement and expansion there, to provide good service and gateways. The pilots are on board to participate in that.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

That's great.

Bruce.

[Bruce Graham]

A lot of similar points are being brought up here in regard to the infrastructure being required, the training of personnel to be increased in regard to your access to new clientele, so being prepared with new equipment, new ideas, having long-term agreements and a multimodal capability around ports. When our clients are looking for things, they're looking for ways to interact with other forms of transportation—your roads, your rails, things like that—so we need some investment in those areas as well.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Let's talk a bit more about that. With respect to getting there, what are your needs?

[Bruce Graham]

We need access to funding. We need continuing dialogue between government and different groups making decisions, so everybody understands those requirements.