Evidence of meeting #117 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was airports.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sara Wiebe  Director General, Air Policy, Department of Transport
Neil Wilson  President and Chief Executive Officer, NAV CANADA
Jonathan Bagg  Senior Manager, Public Affairs, NAV CANADA
Joseph Szwalek  Regional Director, Civil Aviation - Ontario, Department of Transport
Nicholas Robinson  Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
Martin Massé  Vice-President, Public Affairs, Aéroports de Montréal
Bob Sartor  President, Calgary Airport Authority
Anne Murray  Vice-President, Airline Business Development and Public Affairs, Vancouver Airport Authority
Anne Marcotte  Director, Public Relations, Aéroports de Montréal
Matt Jeneroux  Edmonton Riverbend, CPC
Churence Rogers  Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, Lib.

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair (Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber River—Black Creek, Lib.)) Liberal Judy Sgro

Welcome to the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities of the 42nd Parliament. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) we are doing a study on the impact of aircraft noise in the vicinity of major Canadian airports.

Welcome to the committee members and to our witnesses.

From the Department of Transport, we have Sara Wiebe, director general, air policy; Dave Dawson, director, airports and air navigation services policy; Nicholas Robinson, director, policy and regulatory services; by video conference, Joseph Szwalek, regional director, civil aviation, Ontario; and also by video conference, Clifford Frank, associate director, operations, west.

From Nav Canada, we have Neil Wilson, president and chief executive officer; Jonathan Bagg, senior manager, public affairs; and Blake Cushnie, national manager, performance-based operations.

Thank you very much to all of our witnesses for finding the time to share their knowledge with us today. I would ask that you keep it to five minutes so the committee has sufficient time for their questions.

Ms. Wiebe, go ahead.

8:45 a.m.

Sara Wiebe Director General, Air Policy, Department of Transport

Thank you very much for inviting Transport Canada to appear before this committee. I want to take some time with you today to give you Transport Canada's perspective on this important issue. As you mentioned, Madam Chair, I am joined today by colleagues from our national headquarters, and also two colleagues from our regional office in Toronto by video conference.

As you're probably aware, Transport Canada's primary goal is ensuring that Canadians have a safe, secure, economical and environmentally responsible transport system.

To that end, in the 1990s, the government made a series of decisions in order to improve the air transportation system. One decision was to withdraw from the day-to-day operations and business choices of the air navigation systems and airports. As a result, NAV CANADA and airport authorities such as the Greater Toronto Airport Authority, or GTAA, are all now private and not-for-profit share capital corporations. This decision has proved to be a success.

NAV CANADA and the airport authorities that run our largest airports are recognized worldwide for the quality of their services and facilities, and more importantly, for the ongoing improvement of safety levels. These entities have proved to be more agile, innovative, effective and responsive to the needs of stakeholders. They also demonstrate these strengths when it comes to the management of their affairs.

With regard to Toronto and its surrounding area, Transport Canada has observed that, over the past five years, the level of transparency, accountability and inclusion has increased significantly. NAV Canada and the GTAA have been working closely with other stakeholders to find possible ways to reduce the impact of aircraft noise in the area. The stakeholders, including the different levels of governments, the industry and citizens, must participate in these discussions, since we all have a role to play in noise abatement.

However, we think that the specific noise issues are better understood and managed by local stakeholders. NAV CANADA and the airport authorities have been working with local politicians, interest groups and citizens. They'll develop the best solutions, while taking into account trade-offs in terms of flight access, economic development and environmental impact, including aircraft noise.

For instance, Toronto Pearson has been much discussed in the noise conversation to date. It provides direct daily service to more than 67% of the world's economies. The airport also generates or facilitates approximately 332,000 jobs in Ontario, which accounts for $42 billion or 6.3% of Ontario's GDP. By 2030, it is estimated that Toronto Pearson could generate and facilitate 542,000 jobs.

That being said, we recognize that transportation affects the daily lives of Canadians, and we understand that. While transportation serves as a backbone to Canada's economy, transportation activities must take into account the needs of communities while respecting Canadians and the natural environment. That is why our officials have been closely monitoring aviation noise issues while participating in appropriate forums and encouraging progressive action.

Overall, there are many moving parts, and ongoing collaboration among various actors is required. Transport Canada officials will always work to monitor industry, keep abreast of developments, and consider approvals and oversight as needed.

To finish, I would briefly like to review the deck that we've provided to you. I can do that in just a couple of minutes, and then we will be happy to answer any questions you may have.

As you can see on slide 2, what we wanted to do with this document was outline how aircraft noise management operates in Canada in a general sense, look at the different actors involved, and highlight Canada's balanced approach to aircraft noise management.

On slide 3, you can see that there are a variety of actors involved in noise management, with varying roles and responsibilities. Successful aircraft noise management involves collaboration among all of these entities. Industry is responsible for day-to-day operations, business decisions and communicating with local stakeholders, while Transport Canada provides regulations, oversight and guidance.

Moving to slides 4 and 5, it is important to recognize the international guidance that's provided on this important issue. We look to the International Civil Aviation Organization, ICAO, which is housed in Montreal. ICAO guidance is centred around its balanced approach to aircraft noise management, and there are four elements that are mutually reinforcing.

8:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Ms. Wiebe, could you bring your comments to a close, please?

8:50 a.m.

Director General, Air Policy, Department of Transport

Sara Wiebe

Certainly.

Slide 6 emphasizes that a balanced approach can't succeed without community engagement, so this is why we turn to airport operators that operate in the community for that. Transport Canada continues to participate in noise management committees, for example.

I also want to point out that in 2015, with Transport Canada's encouragement, industry developed a clear set of standards for the development of an airspace change communications and consultation protocol.

8:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much. We will give you time to get your other comments in.

Mr. Wilson, you have five minutes, please.

8:50 a.m.

Neil Wilson President and Chief Executive Officer, NAV CANADA

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning, everyone.

As the chair indicated, I'm Neil Wilson. I'm the president and chief executive officer of Nav Canada. I'm joined today by Jonathan Bagg, senior manager, public affairs, and by Blake Cushnie, national manager of performance-based operations.

I'd like to start by thanking the chair, the vice-chairs and the members of this committee for this opportunity to appear.

It's regrettable, but it's nonetheless a fact that noise from aircraft in this day and age is an unavoidable consequence of the operation of aircraft. That said, significant efforts are being made across the entire aviation industry to reduce the impact of aircraft operations on communities. We at Nav Canada are committed to this goal and to collaboration with our partners: airports, airlines, Transport Canada, and the International Civil Aviation Organization—as well as, importantly, communities—on this important issue.

As the country's private, not-for-profit provider of air navigation services, Nav Canada is responsible for the safe and efficient movement of aircraft in all Canadian-controlled airspace. This means that we are responsible for more than 18 million square kilometres of airspace from coast to coast to coast, reaching halfway across the north Atlantic, the busiest oceanic airspace in the world. We handle more than 3.3 million flights per year, and these flights are made by approximately 40,000 customers, including airlines, cargo operators, and business and general aviation.

Our mandate is achieved primarily through the delivery of air traffic control and flight information services; the maintenance, update, and publishing of aeronautical information products; the reliable provision of communications, navigation and surveillance infrastructure; and the 24-7 availability of advanced air traffic management systems, many of which we at Nav Canada develop right here in Canada and have exported around the world.

Thanks to the work of our 5,100 employees, operating out of more than 100 operational facilities throughout the country, Canada boasts one of the best air traffic management safety records in the world. We also achieve this success with a service charges model that has some of the lowest service charges and is among the most cost-effective in the world.

At its heart, simply put, our service is essential to an industry that employees hundreds of thousands of Canadians, allows millions of us to connect to each other and to the world, and propels the Canadian economy forward. That is why we have invested more than $2 billion since 1996, when we assumed responsibility for the air navigation system, to make air travel safer and more efficient.

At the same time, we are also committed to helping reduce the industry's footprint, both in terms of greenhouse gas emissions and aircraft noise, and we are also investing in that. Through technological innovation and procedural improvements, Nav Canada has helped reduce the industry's fuel consumption and associated greenhouse gas emissions. We estimate that our efforts resulted in greenhouse gas savings of 1.5 million tonnes in 2017 alone.

In addition, our role as air navigation service provider requires us to ensure that our air traffic control procedures adhere to noise operating restrictions and noise abatement procedures throughout Canada. Nav Canada engages regularly in airspace modernization projects. In deploying advanced procedures, Nav Canada seeks opportunities to place approach and departure paths over non-residential areas, targeting industrial, commercial and agricultural land. In several cases, we have been able to move flight paths or portions of flight paths farther away from residential areas. Newer technologies are also increasing the use of quieter continuous descent operations, which see aircraft descending in a cleaner configuration and at a lower thrust setting.

When I became CEO in 2016, one of the first things I did was to meet certain community leaders concerned with aircraft noise in Toronto to discuss those concerns. As a result, we commissioned, and recently completed, an independent third party airspace review, which looked at noise mitigation at airports around the world, sought input from communities in the Toronto area, and resulted in a series of recommendations that I believe are both meaningful and achievable.

Some of these recommendations were the subject of a significant public consultation process undertaken jointly with the Greater Toronto Airports Authority, which took place this past spring. As a result of this effort, we will be implementing new nighttime approach and departure procedures this November. These mitigations result in as many as 221,000 fewer people being impacted by noise related to a night flight, depending on the runway and procedure being used. As we evaluate these mitigations and we gather community and stakeholder feedback, we will consider applications at other airports that can benefit from a similar approach.

When developing these airspace improvements, our accountabilities are outlined in the airspace change communications and consultation protocol, which provides guidance on when and how public consultation should occur, while promoting cross-industry collaboration.

We remain committed to working transparently with industry stakeholders and with communities equally, to identify opportunities to reduce the impact of aircraft operations while meeting the airspace needs of this country now and in the future.

Thank you, Madam Chair. We welcome any questions you may have.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

We'll move on to Mrs. Block.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you for joining us today and providing us with your testimony.

I have a couple of questions for Nav Canada. I understand that part of Nav Canada's mandate is to alter flight paths to improve airspace efficiency. You talked about that in your opening comments. I wonder if you could expand on what factors you consider when implementing changes to existing flight paths.

9 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, NAV CANADA

Neil Wilson

Thank you for the question.

When we are looking at flight paths in particular communities, we obviously care about the impact of the changes on those affected around airports. Airports in this country tend to be located in major cities, so there are going to be impacts where aircraft are flying. We take into account the fuel savings and the safety factors that are introduced by changing the air paths. We also engage quite deliberately and carefully with the communities that are affected.

We engage in a number of ways, largely guided by the airspace change communications and consultation protocol, which defines accountabilities in and among the airports, ourselves and other industry stakeholders, as this is really a joint effort that we are all engaged in. When we do so, we have briefings with residents in the affected areas, which are tailored to their concerns. We bring specific information as to how they may be impacted and what possible mitigation there may be around their area. We discuss it with them. We meet with elected officials like you—at this level or at provincial and municipal levels—who represent others who may be impacted, to make sure there's a good understanding of what the issues are. We provide a good deal of information online for those who aren't able to attend the in-person meetings that we have in communities.

We try to do it as early as we can and as consistently as we can. Going back over the years, perhaps we have not done as good a job as we should have. We learned from that and we are trying, day in and day out, to do a better job as we go forward.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Thank you very much.

As the organization responsible for air traffic management across the country, how do you think Canada's aviation industry as a whole can address aircraft noise concerns without negatively impacting our country's economic competitiveness?

9 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, NAV CANADA

Neil Wilson

I think it's a balance that we have to achieve. Aviation is a significant driver of economic activity in this country. It is worldwide. Canada is particularly impacted by aviation. We sit on the flight paths between Europe and the United States to the south, as traffic flowing between those two areas goes through our airspace. We have built a country not just on railways, but on aviation. It is essential to the economy of this country. We cannot lose sight of that.

At the same time, we have to understand and take into account the very legitimate concerns of folks in communities who are affected by noise and who live in the vicinity of major airports that have grown over time. We have to be sensitive to that and make sure that we achieve the proper balance.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

I wonder if you could share with us a little about the role that you might have when looking to strike that balance by perhaps moving some air traffic from an airport like Pearson to Hamilton. We know it has been suggested that perhaps some air traffic, especially cargo air traffic, could be moved to a smaller regional airport to take the pressure off a larger centre and to accommodate the residents living in that larger centre.

Could you comment on that, please?

9 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, NAV CANADA

Neil Wilson

Sure. We facilitate the movement of aircraft. We don't decide where the aircraft should go. We don't operate airports. Airports operate airports. Airlines operate airlines. Cargo operators determine their base of operations.

They all have interests in where they should operate from and how they should operate, and we facilitate the movement around that. We make sure that movement can be safe, first and foremost, and we make sure those movements can be efficient.

As those policy decisions are worked through by all the various stakeholders, we are interested, obviously. We want to make sure that this can happen as they see fit. We want to make sure it can happen in a safe way. We want to make sure we are as efficient as possible. As we look at the flight paths that we are called upon to design and to assist with, we want to make sure that if there are going to be communities that are impacted in a negative way, we're there to work to minimize that as much as possible and to provide suggestions on how that might happen.

We are part of this infrastructure. We don't drive those kinds of decisions, but we want to make sure that we are part of the conversation and that we can be as helpful as possible to all the stakeholders and to the communities that might be affected.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Okay. Thank you.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

We move now to Mr. Hardie.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, everybody, for being here.

Ms. Wiebe, I have a question for you. The ultimate accountability for how this all works inevitably comes back to government, because everybody will look to government if things aren't working properly. Within government, where will issues like this ultimately land?

9:05 a.m.

Director General, Air Policy, Department of Transport

Sara Wiebe

As I mentioned in my opening remarks, the department, the government, is committed to having a transportation system that is safe, secure and environmentally sound, and that also contributes to our economy.

I think at the end of the day, Transport Canada continues to watch very closely those elements of the air transportation sector that have been deregulated, such as Nav Canada and the management of our airport authorities.

We work very closely with these entities. I think Neil gets kind of tired of seeing us, sometimes, but we do work very closely with them to monitor the activities they are undertaking, from the perspective of the policy framework around this but also from the very important perspective of the regulatory framework that we manage and have oversight over with regard to not only noise but also various elements of the safety and security of our air sector.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Thank you for that.

Mr. Wilson, you mentioned that you had done a study with the community on the air traffic noise issues around Pearson airport. Could we get a copy of that report and the recommendations?

9:05 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, NAV CANADA

Neil Wilson

Certainly. There have been a couple of pieces of work done around Pearson in the greater Toronto area. Jointly with Pearson—

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

I'm sorry, but I'll need a very short answer, sir, because I have other questions.

9:05 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, NAV CANADA

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

That's a good answer. Thank you.

9:05 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

I noted with interest the comments of one of our previous panellists, who said that Pearson is surrounded, totally surrounded. I don't know if it was totally surrounded when it was first built, but it certainly is now.

In today's regime, would Nav Canada be at the table, let's say, if a municipality wanted to rezone and redevelop an area close to the airport? Would you be part of the public consultation?

9:05 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, NAV CANADA

Neil Wilson

I'm going to defer to Mr. Bagg. We want to be as helpful and as collaborative as we can. I can't tell you that we're going to have notice of every single incident where that happens, but Mr. Bagg can assist with that.