Transport Committee on Oct. 30th, 2018

[Blake Cushnie]

Thank you for the question.

To address the question about industrial areas, I can tell you that one of the goals we've been working toward recently, which we're rolling out in November in Toronto, is to use new technology to try to move the night flights away from as many people as possible.

During the day, our goal is continuous descent—essentially, to use the new technology to guide the airplanes to the runways by the quietest means possible.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

My next question is primarily for the witnesses from Transport Canada.

The department has been conducting a number of noise studies, which are called the NEFs. My question is very simple. Has this data been released to the public? If not, why?

[Sara Wiebe]

When we're talking about the different studies that have been done with regard to noise reduction, I would primarily point to the studies that have been done by Nav Canada and by the GTAA, for example. We work with them on the development of those reports, as well as on the assessment and the monitoring of the implementation of some of the recommendations.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I may have worded my question incorrectly. When Transport Canada uses the noise exposure forecast system, does it post the results on its site?

[Sara Wiebe]

Thank you for the question.

I'm looking at my colleague in civil aviation but I don't believe we're familiar with the reports to which you're referring. We can certainly take that question back, but I'm not familiar with that kind of report.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Okay.

I'll send you my question in writing to be more specific and to not waste too much time on the question this morning.

One issue has been bothering me. You said that Transport Canada's main concern is safety and that it works with organizations that I respect, such as NAV CANADA. By carrying out a number of deregulations and transferring its responsibilities in this area to other organizations, how has Transport Canada increased safety in Canada?

[Sara Wiebe]

Again, thank you for the question.

I mentioned that in the late 1980s, we deregulated our air sector through initiatives such as the privatization of Air Canada. In the mid-1990s, we further deregulated the air sector in the creation of airport authorities, actions that resulted in the creation of Nav Canada.

I want to be clear that final responsibility for the safety of Canada's air sector remains with the minister, in that it's largely achieved through the regulatory oversight that my colleagues in civil aviation undertake. Responsibility for safety remains with the minister. However, the implementation of it is done through entities such as Nav Canada and the airport authorities.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

For many years—and this started before the current Liberal government came to power—Transport Canada has been carrying out a series of deregulations and giving more and more power to large companies or other organizations.

Isn't there reason to reinstate a number of regulations to ensure that national standards are established and met?

[Sara Wiebe]

In response to your question, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, I would suggest that we consider the deregulation of Canada's air sector a success. We consider that it is a sector that is now more economically competitive globally in some contexts, but we also believe that Canada's air sector is more safe and secure as a result of the actions taken in the late 1980s and mid-1990s.

Again, I emphasize that the ultimate accountability for the safety and security of Canada's air sector rests with the minister, and that rests on the regulatory oversight undertaken by the department and my colleagues in civil aviation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Iacono, go ahead.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here this morning.

When we met with NAV CANADA representatives in May, they pointed out that there had been no significant changes in perspective over the past 20 years. However, clearly the urban realities in the greater Montreal and Laval areas have changed in the past 20 years.

Has NAV CANADA adapted the different flight paths to urban development in the greater Montreal and Laval areas?

[Neil Wilson]

The city of Montreal certainly has changed over the past 20 years. I'm gong to ask Mr. Bagg to address the specifics of flight path changes.

[Jonathan Bagg]

There haven't been any recent significant changes concerning the approaches. Certainly the traffic at the Montreal airport has increased and more planes are landing at the airport. However, there have been no changes in air routes to take into account the population increase in these areas.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

Is population density a criterion in the establishment of new transportation corridors?

What are the criteria? When was the last update of the criteria?

[Jonathan Bagg]

Of course we use noise modelling to understand the impact of air routes. When we work specifically on modernizing the airspace and we consider changing the airspace, we use modelling and census information to establish the number of people who are likely to be affected by the noise and to determine how to lower that number.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Has there been a recent update? If so, can you give us the specific date?

[Jonathan Bagg]

The last major update of Montreal's airspace took place in 2012.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

NAV CANADA is authorized to unilaterally alter air routes to improve airspace efficiency.

Can you describe the process of altering air routes and explain the main reasons for these changes, in particular when it comes to night flights?

[Jonathan Bagg]

In terms of looking at the airspace change, we're guided by the airspace change communications and consultation protocol. It has some robust requirements and accountabilities for Nav Canada when it's conducting airspace change.

That includes how and when consultations are conducted and how we communicate the impacts of those changes. It also provides some timeline guidance in terms of how soon you have to give notification of a public consultation event. There are also follow-up reporting requirements. A public engagement report has to be produced following a consultation and before a recommendation to implement the changes is made. That's a key facet.

There's another piece to it where we need to follow up. It's called the 180-day review, where we come back approximately six months after implementation and look at operational performance, as well as any community feedback we received as a result of the change.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

In France, for example, the continuous descent approach procedure has been implemented at the 11 main airports, including Paris-Charles de Gaulle airport. In 2017 alone, continuous descent approach procedures were used at Paris-Charles de Gaulle airport 30% of the time.

The briefing note that you sent to the committee members states that the “company is increasing the use of quieter continuous descent operations.”

How often are continuous descent approach procedures used in Canada?

[Jonathan Bagg]

If you look at our current situation, you will see that we actually recently established something called an industry noise management board, which brings together technical expertise from across the industry. One of the tasks of that industry, starting in Toronto, is to come up with an acceptable definition of continuous descent—what the definition is and what that looks like operationally—and start reporting on it in Toronto.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Is this approach procedure used for all night flights?

[Jonathan Bagg]

Ideally, we want to do continuous descent with every aircraft. Ideally, we have an aircraft from top of descent—that's cruise altitude—coming on continuous descent all the way to the runway. We'd like to use that as much as possible.

We do have to use levelling sometimes to provide separation between aircraft. One of the ways we separate aircraft is vertically. You can have 1,000 feet of vertical separation and that does require us to level off an aircraft at times. As we move forward, a lot of the work we're doing internationally and as a company is to promote increased continuous descent operations. That's certainly a priority for this organization.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you,

Ms. Wiebe,

we were told at the last panel that Pearson airport is presently under financial difficulties. Can you confirm that allegation? If so, by how much is it in financial difficulty? What's the number?

[Sara Wiebe]

Thank you very much.

First, I read the testimony and the comments around Toronto Pearson being in financial difficulty. I think we need to look at it more from the perspective of the GTAA, the Greater Toronto Airports Authority, taking a look at its future plans in terms of how its infrastructure will continue to support the increasing volumes that want to arrive at that airport. It's from that perspective that Toronto Pearson is undertaking debt in order to finance their operations.

This is as a result of Canada's user-pay policy. Perhaps you've heard reference to that before. I refer to that because our airport authorities must finance all infrastructure at their airports without any financial support from the government; there is some limited support. This means that when you and I travel through that airport, we pay for our travel and we contribute to the infrastructure that's being developed at that airport.