Evidence of meeting #121 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was project.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10:25 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro
Thank you very much, Mr. Helin.
We'll move to Mr. Hardie, for five minutes.
10:25 a.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, witnesses, for being here.
Being from the coast, having the chance to travel with both this committee and the fisheries committee, and going out on the boats out of Prince Rupert years ago, I know the lay of the land.
To both Mr. Helins, the project that you have in mind, as I understand it, is to transport and ship bitumen. Is that correct?
10:25 a.m.
Chairman and President, Eagle Spirit Energy Holding Ltd.
The chiefs would not allow that.
We will ship upgraded bitumen, which is lighter, so it floats on water.
10:25 a.m.
Liberal
10:25 a.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Okay. As I understand it, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, the moratorium does not apply to non-persistent...
10:25 a.m.
Chairman and President, Eagle Spirit Energy Holding Ltd.
The moratorium applies to just about everything. It applies to upgraded bitumen, synthetic crude and various kinds of oils. It's pretty much a ban.
10:30 a.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
There are, obviously, provisions in there for some products to be shipped. In your business model, going forward, have you looked at the option of producing and shipping something that isn't covered by the moratorium?
10:30 a.m.
Chairman and President, Eagle Spirit Energy Holding Ltd.
It would be so commercially ridiculous to consider doing something like that when we can take an upgraded product right out of the ground, ship that to the coast, and get Brent Crude pricing for it, so that we wouldn't be losing a $100 million a day.
We've specifically tried to design what our proposed project would do to meet the highest environmental standards in the world. There's also some issue, according to the B.C. Chamber of Shipping, of this ban being contrary to federal maritime law. If this ban goes into effect, it's going to be challenged by all of the first nations along the route. There's a writ already—
10:30 a.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
I need to call time here because I have some other questions I need to ask.
Thanks.
Ms. Slett and Ms. Anderson, in your broader view of the whole landscape along the west coast.... I mean we have a couple of international boundaries, one up towards Alaska and the other towards Washington state, but the water and, indeed, even the shipping really don't know any boundaries per se.
What kind of dialogue have you had with the first nations in Alaska and in Washington state? I would note especially that Washington state is where a lot of tanker traffic not only from Alaska but, I hear, even from Russia will go into Cherry Point and the other refineries there.
What kind of synergies do you see in your concerns versus or along with the concerns you're seeing in Alaska and Washington state?
Ms. Slett, we'll start with you.
10:30 a.m.
Chief Councillor, Heiltsuk Tribal Council
Chief Councillor Marilyn Slett
We have had discussions with Washington state's communities and nations. We share a lot of the same concerns around the safety of our marine territories.
We've had members go out and visit with different Washington state senators and talk about, in particular, the safety of marine traffic, and also how, at the end of the day, the synergies are similar. They have supported the Heiltsuk nation, in terms of protecting and ultimately supporting what we're doing here around supporting the tanker ban.
They also don't support the use of articulated barges.
10:30 a.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Thank you.
Ms. Anderson, is that your experience as well?
10:30 a.m.
Referrals Coordinator, Cowichan Tribes
For my part, it's been Washington state...as well as the Department of Ecology that we've been discussing spill response with, primarily. I know the Makah nation in particular has quite an impressive spill response facility at Neah Bay.
We have talked to them and we've coordinated with them to learn more about the processes they use. I think it's something we can learn from here in Canada in terms of bolstering spill response led by indigenous nations on the west coast.
November 20th, 2018 / 10:30 a.m.
NDP
Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I'd like to thank each of the witnesses for joining us this morning.
In addition, I want to thank my fellow committee members for agreeing to hold an additional meeting so that we could hear from a number of indigenous communities. The witnesses here today represent those communities. So far, we have heard people talk about you, but hearing from you is far better.
With this study on trade corridors, we are clearly looking for a solution to the spiral of consumption. What's the best way to ship more goods and get them to the communities who need them? I get the feeling that the environmental part of the equation is all too often seen as secondary to development, when the two should actually go hand in hand.
Ms. Anderson, I heard you say in your opening remarks something to the effect that you were being ignored for the sake of progress. Would you mind elaborating on the sense you have of being left out of the process? Are you being ignored during the consultation process? Is it collaboration-wise, when it comes time to carry out the project? Why do you say that you're being ignored for the sake of progress?
10:35 a.m.
Referrals Coordinator, Cowichan Tribes
That's a great question.
It just seems to be a general process that we get a lot of people, in terms of consultation, coming in and it seems as though they're just note-takers. They come in and they list our concerns, but nothing meaningful is ever done about our concerns, whether they're environmental—and we have our own economic concerns as well, but typically those aren't put in the same light as, say, pushing forward the Trans Mountain pipeline, which is for the benefit for all Canadians. As far as we as a coastal community are concerned, it's nothing but impacts and it's nothing but an infringement on our rights and title.
I brought up the southern resident killer whales because that's a very obvious example, so I'll use it again, but there are others. There are simply these extreme environmental risks that aren't being acted upon sufficiently.
I know there was a recommendation from ministers to enact emergency measures to protect the orcas, which didn't go ahead, which is really unfortunate, but there has to be some other way to have these kinds of concerns addressed meaningfully and really urgently.
I, for one, am quite terrified about the climate report that came out recently. It's frustrating for me to hear that we just need to get our resources out of the ground. Just because they're there doesn't mean they need to be exploited. We need to find something more sustainable and something that really considers longevity of the environment and reclamation of rights and title.
10:35 a.m.
NDP
Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you.
I fully understand the environmental issues and the protection of orcas, but could you give some examples of how the increase in marine traffic directly affects your community? I imagine more and more ships are moving through the Strait of Georgia. What are the day-to-day consequences you have to deal with because of that increase in traffic?
10:35 a.m.
Referrals Coordinator, Cowichan Tribes
Primarily it's an issue with harvesting for our communities. Over the course of history and industrial progress, our community has been pushed out of areas where they can harvest traditional foods such as shellfish, waterfowl and anadromous fish like salmon. That's the primary one that's consistently being further impacted.
There's light and noise pollution. There was an outbreak of cholera in the water just this past year. We're not entirely sure what that's tied to yet, but I have to imagine it's somewhat tied to climate change and increasing temperatures.
I would say it's primarily our right to harvest and consume traditional foods. Our main area for harvesting was historically Cowichan Bay, and due to increased marine activity there, it's simply impossible. We had goals of reclaiming the ability to harvest there by 2020, and it's just not going to happen. There's maybe one decent shellfish beach near our territory, and even then it's not enough to enable the largest first nation in B.C. to sustain its community.
10:35 a.m.
NDP
Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you very much.
Chief Councillor Slett, you said in your opening remarks that you'd like to see a robust environmental impact assessment. What would need to be added to the current environmental impact assessment in order to satisfy you?
10:35 a.m.
Chief Councillor, Heiltsuk Tribal Council
Chief Councillor Marilyn Slett
There hasn't been an EIA where we've come to an agreement on the terms. We're running out of time. That EIA needs to happen right away. The spill happened about two years ago.
Initially, these discussions were happening with B.C. and the polluter independently. There hasn't been a nation-to-nation consultation. EIAs need to be done immediately after impacts such as a diesel spill on communities. They need to happen as soon as is practical for the impacted first nations.
10:40 a.m.
Conservative
Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB
I have a question for the three on video and audio conference. I would appreciate a very quick answer, because I have some questions for our guests in the studio here.
Recognizing that you are effectively under oath, can each one of you categorically say, yes or no, whether you are currently or have in the past received funding from environmental groups based out of the United States to oppose pipelines?