Evidence of meeting #123 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was actually.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10:25 a.m.
Kelowna—Lake Country, Lib.
Can you quickly explain the importance of those class 1 and class 2 flight instructors to your operation and the production of pilots?
10:25 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Ottawa Aviation Services
Sure.
These are all technical terms. Class 1 instructors are the top of the food chain. They are allowed to teach how to become an instructor. Class 2 instructors are basically the same as class 1, but they're not allowed to teach instructors. They have a lot of experience and they supervise junior instructors. Class 4 is the most junior instructor you will find. They usually come right out of flight school and are trained by us. Class 3 is an intermediate stage, between class 4 and class 2, where they are given a little less supervision.
When we train pilots, we need to spread our instructors over x number of pilots. We do about six students per instructor, which gives us the ability to have the resources to monitor how the training is done and to ensure quality of training. Those instructors are usually class 4 and class 3. The class 2 instructors supervise the class 3 and the class 4. Basically, the class 1 are teaching those instructors on a regular basis how to improve their performance and how to train properly, quality and safety being at the centre of everything we do.
10:25 a.m.
Kelowna—Lake Country, Lib.
Based on what you said, and my knowledge of the operation, you absolutely require class 1 and class 2 instructors.
10:25 a.m.
Kelowna—Lake Country, Lib.
What's the turnover rate of your class 1 and class 2 instructors?
10:25 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Ottawa Aviation Services
OAS is a bit special, because we're responding to the need for instructors by hiring carrier instructors. We've promoted the status of instructor to that of a manager. We pay them very well to make sure they stay a long time. At other schools, there isn't the capability to do this. They're reporting 100% to 150% turnaround on those class 1 and class 2 instructors—assuming they go to class 1 and class 2. Most of our colleague schools don't even see the instructors going to class 1 or class 2.
There is a bit of a vicious circle, where the quality of training and the safety aspect are starting to be felt by a lot of the airlines, because the class 4 instructors, obviously, don't have the experience to actually manage—
10:25 a.m.
Kelowna—Lake Country, Lib.
Do you know how much credit military pilots would get if they were to try to get a civilian licence—those who have retired from the military and aren't really interested in the airlines, and maybe have a B category or an A category?
10:25 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Ottawa Aviation Services
No. Well, the answer is yes and no. The answer is peanuts. Basically, we can't do anything. Depending on when and how the military pilot comes out of the tour with the military, it's very difficult for us to actually put them into—
10:25 a.m.
Kelowna—Lake Country, Lib.
I have an A2 category licence and used to run the Instrument Check Pilot School for Canada, with about 900 hours of instructional.... Would you say that a guy like me would be capable, with minimal training, to get...seeing as I've supervised people going solo on many occasions, and taught other instructors—
10:25 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Ottawa Aviation Services
We can't use you.
10:25 a.m.
Kelowna—Lake Country, Lib.
Well, you can't use me, but how much training do you think I would need? Would I have to go through the whole program?
10:25 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Ottawa Aviation Services
It would be 35 hours on the ground, assuming that I can convert your licence to a commercial licence.
10:25 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Ottawa Aviation Services
You have that, so then it's 35 hours on the ground and 30 hours in the airplane.
10:25 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro
Thank you very much, Mr. Paillard.
I'm sorry, your time is up.
We will go on to Mr. Graham.
10:25 a.m.
Liberal
David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC
I'll keep going on Mr. Fuhr's line of questioning. Mr. Fuhr has flown the Atlantic solo a number of times, which is something I think many pilots would like to do.
How do we get these very experienced pilots into these class 1 and class 2 slots? One of the problems I see is that if everybody who gets a licence goes on to get a really interesting job flying for an airline, then there's nobody left to train them.
10:25 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Ottawa Aviation Services
I'm lucky enough to have seen both sides of the Atlantic, solo and as a captain on the aircraft as well. I'm also lucky enough that I've actually been trained on both sides of the Atlantic. Maybe I'll use an example of what's going on in the U.K., France or Spain. There is a program in Europe that brings airline pilots back into the flight schools, particularly in their retirement years. There are programs in place, and I strongly encourage the committee to look at this. It actually works very well.
10:25 a.m.
Liberal
10:25 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Ottawa Aviation Services
No, there's no equivalent in Canada. The only thing we've done on our side is design a program that goes around this. The program is designed so that experienced pilots are teaching in our program on the simulator side of things. It doesn't replace the experience needed at class 1, class 2 for the ab initio stage, when the students are learning their key skills. We don't have anybody who actually.... When you're an airline pilot, such as a Boeing 777 captain, flying from Toronto to Hong Kong, you're not going to go back into a Cessna 172, de-icing an aircraft at -60°C. It's hard for them to transition back to that aircraft.
We have to treat our instructors as professionals, and stand the instructor up on the ladder of the pilot profession. Today, everybody sees being a captain of Boeing 777 at Air Canada as the top of the food chain. Yes, it is, to some extent, but I can tell you that I have a lot of respect for my class 1 instructors who are actually teaching these kids today, because they go out every day, even at -20°C in the winter, and they train those kids very well.
10:30 a.m.
Liberal
David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Right. Do you agree with the assessment, building on Mr. Fuhr's comments earlier.... Would it be helpful to make it easier for military instructors to be given some credit in the civilian aviation world for their military instruction experience?
10:30 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Ottawa Aviation Services
Absolutely, yes. Let me add one thing to this. Military pilots are trained to competency. They're trained to mission-specific training. This is exactly what the airlines today are asking us to do, to reduce the training time. Today, it takes 18 months to train an airline pilot in Canada. We need to move, and Transport Canada needs to move, to a point where we can use competency-based training, as they do in Europe today.
Today, it's not unusual to find an 18-year-old or a 19-year-old Airbus 320 first officer at Aer Lingus, British Airways. In Canada, you will never see that, because we don't have competency-based training in place. We're trying other ways to do it. There are a few schools in Canada that are trying to do this, but it is working around Transport Canada, not working with Transport Canada.
10:30 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Ottawa Aviation Services
It makes a difference.
10:30 a.m.
Liberal
David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC
I do have more questions, and I don't have a lot more time.
I flew with Ottawa Aviation Services once, with Adam Vandeven. I understand he's not with you anymore.
10:30 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Ottawa Aviation Services
No, he's gone.