Transport Committee on Dec. 4th, 2018

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I'm hoping to share my time with my colleague Mr. Jeneroux.

I will perhaps piggyback on that last question from my colleague across the way. First, though, thank you so much for joining us today. I certainly appreciated not only your testimony but the testimony we heard from the previous panel and all the recommendations. I'm sure we're going to take the time to look through them very carefully.

I also appreciate that identifying and understanding the challenges facing an industry can, if the participants are willing, lead to turning them into opportunities and finding solutions. I think that's what we're trying to do.

Given the uncertainty that was highlighted through your testimony and the lack of predictability that results from the current salary model you were talking about, and also given the number of associations and stakeholders within your industry, my question is twofold.

Does it really require the government to take a lead role in the conversation towards a different salary model? What role would the unions play in that conversation?

[Capt Dan Adamus]

There has been some discussion with industry stakeholders on what I've talked about, but just this much. I think if we truly want to find some permanent solutions, somebody is going to have to give the industry stakeholders a nudge. I think the government has a role there.

Ms. Kearns mentioned earlier that perhaps this country needs an aviation strategy. Part of it could be for the industry to look at different pay models.

It's not going to be an easy task, and I'm the first to admit it, but we're certainly willing to do our part, because we want a made-in-Canada solution. The last thing we want as pilots is to say we don't have enough pilots, so open our borders and let other foreign pilots come in. I'm willing to do whatever it takes to get to that point.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Go ahead, Mr. Jeneroux.

[Matt Jeneroux]

Thank you.

I'm curious if that perhaps could fall into the aerospace strategy that has long been awaited and long promised by the innovation minister. I think it was in June 2016 that he said he would table it, and we're still waiting for it.

However, I want to clarify something you said earlier with regard to somebody who has 20 years' experience coming into the industry essentially being paid the same as somebody who's brand new to the industry.

Help reconcile with me why that is. If you're an airline, are you jumping at these people who have 20 years' experience, versus the new grads, if you will? I would think that if you have 20 years' experience, you're a lot more attractive to an airline than if you're a new grad.

You said that, Mr. Adamus, and it still confuses me as to why that's the case.

[Capt Dan Adamus]

That is the exact issue that I was trying to bring up here. I'll give you a real-life example.

About four years ago, Kelowna Flightcraft had the Canada Post-Purolator contract. They'd had it for 20-some years. It was up for renewal. They lost it to Cargojet. At the time, Kelowna Flightcraft had approximately 150 pilots. Since they lost the contract, they had to lay off about 120 pilots. You had about 120 pilots out on the street looking for jobs.

Each individual airline has their own seniority list. It's not transferable. Those 120 pilots had to look for another job. Wherever they went, they were starting at year one. There's something fundamentally wrong with that.

[Matt Jeneroux]

Why would they start at year one? Who is paying them as year one? Is it the airline that has made that decision to pay them at year one, or is it through the association...?

[Capt Dan Adamus]

It's a combination, but they go in as a new hire and in an entry-level job, which is as a first officer on probably the smallest aircraft.

[Matt Jeneroux]

Can they appeal that?

[Capt Dan Adamus]

No. It's based on seniority, and they're the lowest on the seniority list.

[Matt Jeneroux]

Okay.

[Prof. Suzanne Kearns]

Just very quickly, this is a very airline-specific issue. Corporate and business aviation is entirely different. As well, general aviation is outside of the airline sector. They do not typically work on the same seniority list issue. This is specifically for airlines.

[Matt Jeneroux]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Badawey is next.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

We've heard not only here in this committee but in many committees that we're running into a human resources crisis in many different sectors. Mentioned earlier were the trucking industry, the marine industry, physicians, pilots and the trades.

My first question is with respect to your industry working with others to come up with any holistic solutions to the HR crisis.

[Prof. Suzanne Kearns]

I don't know that working with other industries outside aviation.... I don't know that we do that, typically, but I would suggest that within aviation there's such a diversity of types of jobs. We have everything from hospitality, which are flight attendant jobs, to maintenance engineers, which is very much a trade, all the way through to pilots, which of course is a professional skill that takes years to develop, and then everything in between.

Of course we need pilots, but I like to think of pilots as job facilitators. For every pilot we have.... I think Air Canada has maybe 3,500 pilots, but think of the tens of thousands of jobs that are linked to those pilot roles in having those aircraft in transport.

I don't know that we do cross-disciplinary recruitment and outreach the way we could, but I would suggest that there's a tremendous amount of diversity within aviation.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Before I pass my time over to Mr. Graham, I would suggest as a takeaway that the industry in fact look at working with other industries. I'll give you an example.

Look at the marine sector as an example, where we have the same challenge with engineers who work in the engine rooms. When we look at captains of ships and pilots of airplanes—and the list goes on—we see there is a connection with respect to the broader issue in relation to human resources and the solutions that would attach to same, which may be consistent across the board.

It makes it easier for government, therefore, to put programs in place to fund when those issues are consistent under those very programs. Yes, there might be anomalies with respect to the specifics of the industry, but those can be fleshed out in that collaboration and therefore addressed, hopefully, within a broader program, versus cookie-cuttering or siloing different programs to individual sectors. I would encourage this to happen so that we're therefore able to put incentives in place.

We're able to also match capital investments with those interests, whether that be with municipalities, regions, provinces or sectors.

Third, there are mechanisms that we can put in place to become an enabler for recruitment, as well as retention and upgrades for the individuals who are already in the sector.

Last, you can look at coming here to us not just when being called as a witness, but also as an association that is coming to us in a more frequent manner, so that we can actually keep pace in that way with the needs you have.

I'm just putting that forward after listening for the past few hours to a lot of what I've heard, and in terms of a takeaway, that might in fact be available for you.

With that, David, you're all set.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I think I have maybe 20 seconds or in that neighbourhood.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You have 50 seconds.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I'll take 50.

We talked a lot, in the past panel especially, about having experienced pilots pass their knowledge on to new pilots. Just for the record, if I as a 200-hour pilot were in a push to make commercial, and I wanted a 25,000-hour pilot with 30 years' experience to train me, how much more would he cost me per hour than the current class 2 instructor I've got?

[Capt Dan Adamus]

Currently, you don't have flight instructors with that amount of experience, because they've moved on to larger aircraft. That's sort of the crux of the issue. We're saying that if we could somehow entice those pilots with all that experience to come back to teach, maybe in the latter part of their career, it would be a win-win for everybody, I think. That's one of the things we have to do as an industry as a whole.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you.

Thank you very, very much to our witnesses this morning. It was very informative.

Before I adjourn the meeting, we have the budget projections for motion M-177. I need someone to move adoption of the budget that's before you.

[Matt Jeneroux]

I have a question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Go right ahead, Mr. Jeneroux.

[Matt Jeneroux]

We seem to be flying in a number of people. There's one from Palm Springs for $1,500. There's one from Utopia—which is, I imagine, as I often refer to it, Edmonton Riverbend.