Transport Committee on Dec. 4th, 2018

[Mark Laurence]

I just heard anecdotally that it wasn't a very pleasant experience. I think most of the CP guys have retired by now, so it's probably dealt with.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

That's fair.

How do modern airline pilots feel about having younger pilots in the cockpit jump seats? We were talking about this in the previous panel. I have my PPL. I'm close to my CPL, but I don't have it. I would love to go in the cockpit when I'm flying, to get that experience and see what it's like and feel the experience that way, but since 9/11 we obviously can't do that.

How do pilots themselves feel about that?

[Capt Dan Adamus]

I think that's what got me interested in flying. I was always amazed at these planes in the sky, and I was able to get up front during a flight one day. In the early part of my career, we were always encouraged to bring passengers up front, for obvious reasons, and with 9/11, we all know what happened.

Our association has been lobbying Transport Canada to see if there's a way that we could have a captain approve others who have been properly vetted to enter our flight deck. For example, all of you have security background checks by virtue of your job as members of Parliament—

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

You'd be surprised at how little we have.

[Capt Dan Adamus]

—and a NEXUS cardholder has a security background check as well. These are some of the things that we've suggested to Transport Canada that perhaps we could look at in the future to allow more people back in the flight decks.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

If we compare aviation to something like being a pharmacist, how does the upfront cost versus the income afterward compare? Do you have a way of quantifying that?

[Prof. Suzanne Kearns]

I don't have exact numbers, but in general, it's one of those things that's very heavily weighted towards the end of your career.

When I have been speaking to parents and their students who have really high averages, they'll legitimately ask me, “Why would I become a pilot when I have to invest an extra $75,000 to $100,000 above my university tuition when I have the grades to become an aerospace engineer and make six figures as soon as I graduate?” That's a really hard question to answer.

I think we need to be really strategic in making it a viable pathway for people to get into the profession.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Go ahead, Mr. Iacono.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Laurence, flight simulators are an important part of training for student pilots. Given the recent technological advances, we can expect better quality simulators to ensure a realistic flight experience.

How can the use of flight simulators address the shortage of instructors in flight schools? In addition, how would the increased use of flight simulators affect the quality of the training?

[Mark Laurence]

That's a good question.

I'm not an expert in flight schools. If you're talking about a full flight simulator, that's a $20-million thing, so that's out of reach of most flight schools. I'm not sure how much flight training devices cost. They certainly are good for doing procedural work, learning how to fly on instruments and that sort of thing, so there's a great value there.

I'm not really sure.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Does anybody else have a guess?

[Prof. Suzanne Kearns]

Full flight simulators used by airlines are extremely expensive and out of reach for most flight schools, but there are lower-fidelity devices at around half a million dollars that provide enough fidelity for training purposes.

From a research perspective, we talk about cognitive fidelity being what matters, meaning that if it replicates the internal mental processes in training, that can often be more important than the actual physical fidelity of the simulator itself. These less expensive devices can be very effective in training. They also reduce noise and they allow students to fly in bad weather, which is a tremendous challenge here in Canada. It's more of a year-round training footprint. Noise emissions....

There are a lot of advantages for simulations.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Okay.

Ms. Kearns, my next question is for you.

As a result of technological advances, students have the opportunity to take their courses online. In France, for example, students in flight schools can take part of their academic courses online.

What are the advantages and disadvantages of online training? How does online training affect the quality of the training?

[Prof. Suzanne Kearns]

My Ph.D. is in education, but specifically in structural design for online learning, so it's one of my research specialty areas. Last year I developed a course through the University of Waterloo partnering with ICAO. It's called “fundamentals of the air transport system”, and it's a completely free course that introduces all the different sectors of aviation. It has now been completed by students in every global region—not just pilots, but all the professionals.

In looking at the history of e-learning and aviation, what became very clear was that early on they recognized that it was a lot cheaper. A lot of aviation companies were very quick to adopt that training without really understanding if it was effective in accomplishing the learning objectives that it should have. We saw the development of many, many ineffective e-learning courses, and it took quite a long time for the learning science to catch up and create principles of what works and what doesn't.

Today, even as we're talking about all the integrations of technology, I really want to emphasize that in general, the least expensive technology that accomplishes the learning objective is what we should do. It's what we call a task-to-tool framework: we figure out what the problem is and we find a tool that solves that problem. That's in contrast to what I think we've had a history of doing in aviation, which is going for the bright and shiny tool. We call that a tool to task: we find really cool technology and ask how we can apply it to aviation, and it's not really directly addressing a need.

I think there's also a lot of opportunity for e-learning for outreach purposes. I feel that elementary and secondary schools putting out aviation curriculums that are linked to STEM disciplines would have tremendous advantages. It has been shown that e-learning can be quite effective in ab initio and professional training as well, as long as it's implemented strategically.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Therefore, you conclude that e-learning would be a solution for pilot shortage.

[Prof. Suzanne Kearns]

I think there are a lot of advantages and potential.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Sure.

[Capt Dan Adamus]

Pilots have to do recurrent ground school once a year. It's a refresher on the systems on the aircraft—the electrical system, for example. Today it's all done by e-learning. I learn a lot more doing it that way than by sitting in a classroom.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

Madam Chair, I will give the rest of my time to Mr. Sikand.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You have a minute and a half.

[Gagan Sikand, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

This is for anyone. Along those lines, I'm thinking about the trucking industry. They have a shortage of truckers, but you see the technology of autonomous trucking growing quite quickly. It is a commercial use, so I'm not talking about autonomous vehicles and everyday driving.

In the airline industry, I hear planes pretty much can fly themselves for most of the flight. Do you see an opportunity there for fewer pilots and more autonomous flight navigation?

[Prof. Suzanne Kearns]

“Not in the near future” is the short answer. Remotely piloted aircraft systems have their entire regulatory structure. That's the term the International Civil Aviation Organization uses for drones; they're remotely piloted. Autonomous aircraft are a piece of that.

In the case of things like Uber Air, some of the new technologies that use autonomous systems and some remotely piloted systems have a command and control link to a remote pilot station so that pilots could jump in if they need to, but all of that remotely piloted technology represents a destructive influence on traditional aviation, which we're still trying to manage and figure out.

International standards are not yet associated with remotely piloted aircraft systems. It's an emerging issue that probably will change things in the future.

[Gagan Sikand, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Mr. Adamus, I need just a yes or no. Could we not have a ubiquitous pay scale for pilots for the entire globe, given the nature of the work?

[Capt Dan Adamus]

I think we should start with Canada first.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

We should show some leadership.

We'll go on to Mrs. Block.