Evidence of meeting #126 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was airline.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10:10 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro
Thank you very much, Captain Cameron.
Thank you to all for your excellent recommendations.
Mr. Jeneroux, you have four minutes.
10:10 a.m.
Edmonton Riverbend, CPC
I'm sorry, Madam Chair; how many minutes did you say?
10:10 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro
Given the fact that we're at 10:13 already and we're trying to divide it up, it's four minutes.
10:10 a.m.
Edmonton Riverbend, CPC
I'm okay; I was just curious about how many minutes I had.
Thank you all for being here. It's great to have you here.
It's really an honour to have you here, Captain Cameron. Thank you for taking the time to be here.
What is the main reason we're seeing pilots leave the industry? We talk a lot about attracting new and young pilots to the industry, but why are pilots leaving the industry?
I'll start with you, Captain Cameron.
10:10 a.m.
Air Canada Captain (retired), Director, Northern Lights Aero Foundation, As an Individual
My experience is airline. Generally, people don't leave an airline career. Once you start on the seniority pathway, the progression is pretty much assured as long as you can pass your check rides.
This is just conjecture on my part, but I'm thinking that if you're starting out, you've paid all this money, and you're having difficulty finding a job.... There's this joke that the difference between a junior pilot and a pizza is that a pizza will feed a family of four.
Those early years are tough. That's the only reason I can think of for you to leave: You've found another way to make a living that is more secure.
Again, once you're with an airline, you generally continue, because you're on a great career path.
10:10 a.m.
Director, International Board of Directors, Governor, East Canada Section, The Ninety-Nines, Inc., International Organization of Women Pilots
That's an issue I am familiar with, because out of the graduates, only about 40% actually stay in aviation. A lot of them whom I know first-hand do not want to go up into the north, especially when they're from the large urban areas. They go up there and spend a couple of years. They don't make very much, because the third-tier commuter lines are well aware that the pilots will be leaving to go to the next level up, with the goal of Air Canada or WestJet. Very few go there and say they want to stay up in the north. Some do, but that's not the majority.
A lot of them have had scares. The northern operators had in the past been known for trying to push the limits on overweighting planes and for some maintenance issues. If they've had a scare, they'll just say, “I've had enough, and I'm not making very much money”, and they'll walk away. With females, they have problems where.... You know, they're young and the guys are young; they start dating each other and they break up, and that's it. They leave the industry.
There's a whole sort of...but pay is a huge issue. It's a tough one to get around with the way the whole industry has been structured, back from the beginning of airlines.
10:15 a.m.
Edmonton Riverbend, CPC
Okay. Perfect. Thank you.
Mr. Gervais, maybe you'll be able to work your answer in during some of the other questions. I have only a minute left, and I want to put a notice of motion on the table.
This would be a verbal notice of motion, Madam Chair.
10:15 a.m.
Edmonton Riverbend, CPC
Okay. It reads:
That the committee undertake a study of the impact of the federal carbon tax related to the transportation industry as follows:
Two meetings on the carbon tax's impact on air passengers;
Two meetings on the carbon tax's impact on railway customers;
Two meetings on the carbon tax's impact on trucking customers;
and that the committee report its findings to the House.
I have it written out here, Marie-France.
10:15 a.m.
Edmonton Riverbend, CPC
Wonderful.
Mr. Gervais, maybe you could take that time to respond to my question, please.
10:15 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Owners and Pilots Association
Our feeling is that if the pilots are on a pathway to becoming airline pilots, there's such a demand around the world that there's no time to fill these voids and these gaps.
As to why they would be leaving, as Captain Cameron said, usually you don't leave an airline career; it's just that there's no time to get there. They get taken and brought into the business, into the airliner world around the world, because there's so much growth and so much more air traffic.
10:15 a.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, ladies and gentleman, for being here this morning.
Captain, more and more people are flying, are travelling, and therefore airlines are busier and thus making more money. Do you agree?
10:15 a.m.
Air Canada Captain (retired), Director, Northern Lights Aero Foundation, As an Individual
It's a cyclical industry. Maybe they are for now. I've seen it go up and down.
10:15 a.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Therefore, why not invest internally in order to fill up this void? Why aren't the airlines investing in their own personnel? You have many flight attendants on board who have that experience of being flown and serving the public, so why not invest in them taking up these courses? Why isn't there a program that exists internally whereby you give that initiative to your employees to move up the ladder, to move up to the next level and become a pilot? Since we're having this shortage, why isn't that being done?
10:15 a.m.
Air Canada Captain (retired), Director, Northern Lights Aero Foundation, As an Individual
I wish I could answer that as an airline executive, which I am not. It's an interesting question. One of the members of the audience today works with a foundation called Elevate, and they're studying right now why women don't look at aviation as a career for economic security. They certainly would make a lot more money as a pilot than as a flight attendant. I don't have the answer to that.
There is a model in Europe, a cadet program. For example, Lufthansa has a European flight training academy. They do the ground school, and then once you've finished, you start with a feeder airline to Lufthansa. Eventually you move into Lufthansa. There's a signing bonus once you start, and you gradually repay your training once you start with a feeder.
There are pros and cons to that model, as Robin may attest. I'm not sure why Air Canada hasn't looked at it. They haven't had to because in the past people were clambering over each other to get an airline job when there was quite a lack of them. This is a complete change now.
10:15 a.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
There's no shortage when it comes to finding flight attendants, right?
10:15 a.m.
Air Canada Captain (retired), Director, Northern Lights Aero Foundation, As an Individual
I suppose not.
10:15 a.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
I think that would be a positive way to look at it.
My second thing—and the other two can also respond to the questions—is why not also look internally when it comes to pilots, as to pilots giving the courses? A teacher, for example, after two or three years, is going to take a sabbatical to go do research. Why not initiate a program in which you have pilots of a certain number of years' experience initiate six months of training for new pilots, new students? This way you don't have the shortage of trainers. You're saying there's a shortage of students and there's a shortage of pilots. Why not look internally to fulfill both?
10:20 a.m.
Air Canada Captain (retired), Director, Northern Lights Aero Foundation, As an Individual
The shortage is at the beginner level. It's at the private pilot, the commercial pilot level.
Once you're with the airline, the airline has its own internal training program, and they've quite successfully recruited many retired pilots to come back and teach simulator. That's an entirely different skill set from the instructors that they're referring to, the instructors that are needed to get the young ones into the aviation field.