Evidence of meeting #129 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pilots.
A video is available from Parliament.
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I will start with you, Ms. Farly.
In your conclusion, you talked about the issue of examiner availability. Can you tell me more about that? What is the current time frame for examination candidates? In my case, it only took a few days for me to take the exam. How long does it now take for a candidate to be able to take the exam, receive the results and be able to take on their new role, with their new licence?
11:35 a.m.
Chief Pilot and Chief Instructor, Aéro Loisirs
Thank you for the question.
Currently, it takes about one week for someone to be able to take their private pilot or commercial pilot exam. When the instructor feels that the student is ready, they can call in and arrange for the exam to take place fairly quickly. The flight exam can be cancelled due to weather, but it is easy to reschedule it for the next day, the weekend or the following week, if necessary.
However, for a flight instructor flight exam, at least two months are needed, without the possibility of a definitive date because, for the time being, examiners must be airline pilots and have other professional obligations. Since instructor training takes three months when attended full time, as it is generally the case with us, it is difficult to set at the start of the training a specific date for the final exam because a two-month advance notice is needed, which is reset if the exam has to be postponed. So that leads to significant delays. At the same time, I know some class 1 instructors who are currently on the ground as flight examiners and would like to be flight instructor examiners for Transport Canada, but they are being turned away because they are not airline pilots.
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Are the theory exams up to date? Are they in line with current knowledge?
11:35 a.m.
Chief Pilot and Chief Instructor, Aéro Loisirs
That's one of the concerns those of us in the field have right now. The process to review or challenge the theory exams is either outdated or non-existent. A number of my fellow instructors and I have concerns about the subjects covered in the exam. Obviously, the content of the exam isn't public.
To give you a sense of the situation, I'll give you an example. I am an authorized agent for Transport Canada, and my job is to invigilate exams. I had to be fingerprinted by the RCMP. I have a file. I know that I will be held criminally responsible if anything were to occur, but I would like Transport Canada to invite me to take part in an exam review committee. Many of us in the field are concerned about the subjects covered in theory exams and their updating. On both the private and commercial sides, students are discouraged for the simple reason that certain subjects are now out of step with current practice and standards.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC
At the beginning of your presentation, you talked about the shortage of pilots interested in becoming instructors. In the past, all many pilots wanted was to accumulate flight hours.
Do a lot of pilots interested in becoming instructors not do so because they can't make a good living at it?
11:40 a.m.
Chief Pilot and Chief Instructor, Aéro Loisirs
Indeed, I knew many 25 years ago and still know many today. At my school, the pilots who become instructors do it because they want to and can. They're retired and work part time. That's the reality. We work with part-time instructors, so it's quite the juggling act. For example, one of my instructors has another job because he wants to be home with his partner in the evening. I have another young pilot who's becoming an instructor next year. He began the process to become an instructor. He wants to stay in the area and work with his father. It won't be a full-time job for him. These are people who wish to become instructors and make ends meet by working a second job. All of that makes it harder to run the school and provide a stable learning environment. It's tough to make sure students are consistently trained by the same instructor when we work with a team of part-time instructors.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Say an instructor completes their training and has up-to-date skills and knowledge. If they find another job, are you able to keep them on part time but offer them more hours?
11:40 a.m.
Chief Pilot and Chief Instructor, Aéro Loisirs
I sure wish I had an incentive other than motivation to offer. The sense of belonging to a school and being part of the culture is what motivates people to work as instructors, not the money. Our schools can't afford to pay them as much as they'd like. There's just no comparing the pay. For now, the only things that can keep someone working as an instructor are motivation and love of the job.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC
In response to Mr. Aubin's question, you mentioned the help of the CFDC and the CLD. Could you tell us more about the program that made it possible for you to buy the flight school?
11:40 a.m.
Chief Pilot and Chief Instructor, Aéro Loisirs
For the project, I submitted an action plan, and I received a grant for young entrepreneurs. Adopting a similar program for instructors would be worth exploring. Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of the program anymore, but the funding enabled entrepreneurs to be paid during the business's first year in operation. That meant the business had more working capital. It was as though I was receiving employment insurance benefits, but they weren't, of course. What it allowed me to do was spend money and revenue on getting the business up and running or at least to have more working capital.
11:40 a.m.
Churence Rogers Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, Lib.
Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for appearing today.
I want to address my question to Caroline first.
According to the labour market report of March 2018, only 30% of the people involved in the aviation industry are female, and only 7% of pilots are women. What do you believe is the cause of this significant under-representation of women among Canadian pilots?
Is it because of how we have created a gender divide or is it the way we've targeted certain people? I know that back in the day doctors were men and nurses were women. We have gender parity, of course, and gender equality and all the other things we talk about, but is this a problem such that females in our society and under-represented groups, such as minority groups, have not applied to pilot schools to become pilots? Is that one of the biggest causes of the shortage that we see today?
11:40 a.m.
Chief Pilot and Chief Instructor, Aéro Loisirs
That's a very good question.
I think we all have this image.... I'm sorry to say it this way, but Captain Hoff represents the image of the pilot that we all have. We do not see a lot of female pilots. The fact is that we need to hear the voice of a woman telling us that we're ready to land in Peterborough or that we're ready to land. Our parents never tell us as young women that it is a possibility to be an airline pilot. We're not given that possibility. It's when we're older and we see someone that we're given the opportunity to think outside the box.
At my school I think I do have a certain influence. I do influence the daughters of my pilots. I do influence my pilots who say, “I have a daughter and I think she should come and meet you.” At my school we're way more than 7%, but I think there's this new generation, and there are a lot of initiatives for women in aviation that are going out. We have the Ninety-Nines. We have a lot of women's associations that do exist. I think that soon enough we'll be increasing those percentages.
If I can be permitted to say one other thing, because I'm asked to talk to a lot of ladies. Although it is conceived of as a male environment, women are so included in aviation. I have never felt discriminated against. I have never felt that I was a woman in a man's group. This is a sisterhood, a brotherhood, and there is always room for women and everyone in aviation. One thing that we learn in aviation is you cannot be a pilot if you're not a team player.
11:45 a.m.
Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, Lib.
I thank you for that. I've done a lot of flying in my lifetime, and I think last year was the first time on a flight where I ever saw a pilot and a co-pilot who were female. That was the first time I've ever seen that.
The other comment I want to make is directed to Captain Mike Hoff.
Teaching is a noble career. I was a teacher for 29 years. I loved interacting with high school kids on a daily basis—most days, anyway. It was imparting knowledge and guiding these young people who were chasing different careers and stuff.
In your pilot association is wanting to be mentors to young pilots an inspiration for you as part of your career?
11:45 a.m.
Capt Mike Hoff
Absolutely. I would love to be able to participate in that. I feel strongly about it. My career has been fantastic because of altruistic people ahead of me. Marc and I were extremely fortunate to go through a school that had a lot of retired airline people and retired military people, and we got a fantastic education as a result.
It's been difficult to give back vis-à-vis instructing, because we have time limits and we're expensive to our companies. If I go and teach somewhere else, that takes away from the time my employer can use me. That's a no-go area for them.
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Kellie Leitch Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON
Thank you, witnesses, for being here today. My questions will be for all of you, so please feel free to step forward.
One of the things I think all of you have mentioned is the high capital cost, obviously, of running flight schools. Has there been any opportunity for you to speak to an increase in the airport capital assistance program or, quite frankly, a change in the capital cost allowance on your taxes for your organizations? We talk about that frequently for other industries, but have you been able to approach the government with respect to that in your flight schools and your overhead costs?
11:45 a.m.
Flight School Director, Southern Interior Flight Centre, Carson Air
I can answer a little bit of that.
The way the programs are set up—where we are for the aircraft capital part of it—the airport doesn't qualify, because it's too busy. It's one of these things where there's nothing out there that assists specifically for this. Even if it did qualify, it wouldn't qualify under the equipment and rules of—
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Kellie Leitch Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON
What I'm saying is I think there may be an opportunity there for you. I would encourage you to be advocates on that, whether it be for your flight simulation equipment, which is a high capital cost.... I'm a surgeon. We use simulators all the time. You guys are like the anaesthetists in my world, you do the takeoff and landing, and I'm the person in between as a surgeon. we use simulators all the time, and they're high capital cost equipment.
I have a second question. With respect to the actual education of young pilots, obviously for undergraduate or post-graduate education in this country, we provide the Canada student loans program and a forgiveness program. Have any of you, or a large industry leader like Air Canada and others, advocated that, similar to skilled trades, your young pilots and trainees should be a component part of that program?
I leave it with you.
11:50 a.m.
Chief Pilot and Chief Instructor, Aéro Loisirs
In terms of student loans, if a flight school isn't linked to an accredited college program, students aren't eligible for those loan programs.
Even though private schools aren't linked to the college system, their performance levels are recognized by Transport Canada and they are equally as qualified. Ideally, the government would open up those programs to our students as well.
Currently, what students are allowed to do is take out a loan, enter into a specific agreement with a bank for professional training delivered in the region.
One thing, I'm sorry, that I can say is I know that
students submit their tuition receipts for a tax deduction. Recently, my students have told me that the percentage of tax deductible tuition fees has dropped significantly for aviation.
By no means an expert in the area, I do know the issue is worth a closer look. Numerous students have told me that changes were made to the tax credit for commercial programs and that it's significantly less.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Kellie Leitch Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON
Maybe I could ask each of you about one of the other issues that came up, and I guess it's a bit tangential to what Ms. Farly was just mentioning.
It's with regard to the regulations for the simulation schools, and who should be eligible to be running them. That may also aid in providing an opportunity, whether it be for the federal government or provincial governments, to say that all students should be eligible. If there's one set of regulations that governs one being able to function in these facilities, and one standard, then obviously each organization should be eligible for financial support for their students.
Mr. Hoff, you look as if you would like to answer that.
11:50 a.m.
Capt Mike Hoff
Yes, I'd like to jump in here.
First of all, I'd like to thank both of my colleagues for the work they do at these schools. These schools have done a great job of stepping forward and filling a need—
11:50 a.m.
Capt Mike Hoff
—that wasn't there, because it had been abandoned.
One of the upsides to the type of school that Marc and I attended was that the college bought the simulator. This is not to take anything away from businesses that need to make a profit; they have to pay for that simulator, so they need to charge for the time on it. When Marc and I went to school, our college was very highly regarded for its grads, for their instrument skills, because we had 24-hour-a-day, seven-day-a-week access to those simulators for free. We would get in there and fly them. A private institution can't do that.
