Transport Committee on Feb. 21st, 2019

[Jean Laporte]

Again, that is not for us to determine. Our mandate is very clear; we investigate occurrences. There are regulators, other bodies, other government agencies, that have the responsibility to look at energy products being produced, imported and exported, and to do the oversight.

In terms of pipeline activity, the number of occurrences has been relatively stable, it has dropped a little in the last few years. The quantities spilled when there are occurrences are fairly small, as was mentioned earlier, however, in rail transportation, the data is changing.

If you refer to the Fraser study of 2015, since then, there have been a number of improvements to rail safety and we're seeing some changes in the numbers. n a few weeks, we'll be releasing our formal statistics for 2018 and you'll see in there more current data that could be used by the Fraser Institute and others to do the analysis that you're talking about.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Laporte, once that report comes out, if you could send it to the clerk for distribution to the committee, it would be appreciated. Thank you.

Mr. Hardie.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm going to share some time with Madame Pauzé. First, I have two questions.

Does your board investigate any issues or any incidents involving ships?

[Kathleen Fox]

Yes.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

How many incidents have you investigated with respect to shipping of all kinds in and out of Burrard Inlet?

[Kathleen Fox]

I don't have the numbers at hand to be able to specify how many accidents have involved Burrard Inlet.

We have investigated a number of occurrences off the west coast of Vancouver Island involving all manner of vessels, including fishing vessels, tugs and barges. In my memory, which could be corrected, we have not had spills involving what was being transported, but we have had spills involving what was pulling them. For example, a fishing vessel capsized and released bunker fuel. We had the example of the tug Nathan E. Stewart out west, which released 110,000 litres of bunker fuel.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

The focus on the west coast has been the prospect of shipping more oil or diluted bitumen out of the terminal in Burnaby. You're probably aware there are other products, corrosives, other things that would be just as difficult to deal with if they were spilled that have been shipped out of Vancouver for some time.

[Kathleen Fox]

Again, we don't have specific data on what's transported where or when. We look at each specific occurrence, incident or accident, what is on board, what is being transported and the consequences if that spills.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Transport Canada is obviously involved in doing risk assessments. Are you comfortable with the data they have at hand to do that job effectively?

[Kathleen Fox]

We have some data that they have access to. They may have other data. I can't speak to what happens internally in the department in their risk assessments.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Very good.

Madame Pauzé.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Hardie. That's very nice of you.

Just before Christmas, I went to Lac-Mégantic to meet with people who were affected by the tragedy. They told me that the turning where the train derailed, when it was going 101 kilometres per hour, was 3.1 degrees or 3.2 degrees. As the companies insisted on putting cars back in service and resuming transportation as quickly as possible, a portion of the turning was rebuilt, and it is even more pronounced than it was when the derailment occurred.

In addition, the cars passing through Lac-Mégantic are transporting propane gas, an even more explosive product. You will understand that the situation is pretty traumatic for the people of that small village. Your decision to remove that issue from the watch list is also traumatic. The people of Lac-Mégantic talked to me about it all day. It was very traumatic.

According to your opening remarks, railway companies are assessing risks and carrying out inspections themselves. Once again, it is very troubling for the people of Lac-Mégantic—and it should be for all Canadians—to think that railway companies are being given back the power to carry out their own inspections and assessments.

Earlier, you said that you were suggesting measures and then checking whether they were implemented. Do you trust the representatives of railway companies to tell you?

[Kathleen Fox]

First, I can reassure you and the people of Lac-Mégantic: we will never forget what happened there. That was a tragedy.

Three of our five recommendations have still not been implemented. In other words, the TSB is not satisfied with the actions taken in that area.

When it comes to inspections, railway companies definitely must inspect their own infrastructure. However, Transport Canada also carries out inspections and audits of their safety management systems. So it is not quite accurate to say that it's all self-inspection. All companies—be it an airlane, a railway company or a pipeline company—must inspect their own infrastructure according to the standards.

In addition, we require the regulatory body—Transport Canada in the case of railway companies—to conduct its own audits and inspections. That recommendation stems from the Lac-Mégantic tragedy, and it is still in effect because we want to see Transport Canada's inspection results.

We have removed that issue from the watchlist because the specific measures that were part of our requirements have been implemented by railway companies and Transport Canada. That is the only reason we removed it from our watch list, which is like a list of measures to be implemented.

We continue to follow and closely monitor transportation of flammable liquids and railway safety. To do so, we are continuing with our statistical studies and our investigations, and we make recommendations we reassess every year.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

We go on to Mr. Jeneroux.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Thank you for being here today, everyone.

I scrolled through many of the active rail transportation safety recommendations, but most of them are directed at the department of transport. No doubt you've heard that the current Alberta government plans to lease 4,400 railcars to move Alberta oil to market.

I'm curious about those recommendations. Should Transport Canada be acting urgently on them, in light of this oil tanker traffic?

[Kathleen Fox]

I'm going to ask Ms. Ackermans to put the statistics in context; then I'll add anything I can.

[Faye Ackermans]

We took a look at the data and how much is moving. The NEB issued their crude export data yesterday. There are about 130,000 carloads of product being exported. I haven't seen the Stats Canada data; they will update their data as well. There are probably another 50,000 or 100,000 carloads of crude moving within Canada.

Because all of this extra crude in those 4,400 tank cars is for export market, this means about a 50% increase in the export crude volume that is planned to be shipped by the time it becomes fully implemented in 2020, which, as I understand, is the date.

That's the context.

[Kathleen Fox]

I will just add that, in terms of the measures and relating to our watchlist, rail accidents can happen for a number of reasons. Crews don't always follow the signals properly. That is a specific issue on our watchlist. We have the issue of fatigue in all modes of transport now—air, rail and marine—so we're certainly looking at that in the context of rail.

The other two issues on the watchlist that are particularly important are safety management and oversight. We're continuing to track what the industry and Transport Canada are doing with respect to safety management and oversight, as well as our outstanding recommendations, some of which date for more than 10 years, and five of which involve rail recommendations. Three of those five are on the watchlist in some other capacity.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Would you do any proactive stuff? The Premier of Alberta applied to the minister to make this happen. Obviously, approval has been given in some form or another. Is there a conversation that you have with the department—perhaps with the minister—in preparation for some of this?

[Kathleen Fox]

No, our mandate is to investigate occurrences, incidents and accidents. That's what we do. We gather data, and we share that data with Transport Canada and with the industry—the Railway Association of Canada. We meet periodically—at least once a year—with the major railway companies to find out what they're doing and to signal any concerns we may have.

We have an ongoing dialogue with various stakeholders, including the regulator, as to what we're seeing in our statistics and what further actions we think should be taken.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

How often do you meet with the minister?

[Kathleen Fox]

I don't meet that often with the minister. I met with him to brief him initially when he assumed that mandate. We typically meet a deputy minister on a regular basis and quite frequently at the staff level.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

There have been three derailments. There is now a whole bunch more traffic coming onto the rail system and you've only met with the minister once, in terms of briefing him at the beginning. That seems a little strange to me.

[Kathleen Fox]

That doesn't include any letters that may have been sent.

Derailments happen. They happen as a consequence of railway operations.

When we're talking about the transportation of flammable liquids, there's been one derailment since January—of the three—that involved the transportation of flammable liquids. That was St. Lazare, and we are conducting an ongoing investigation on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

We move on to Mr. Aubin.