Evidence of meeting #140 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pilots.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:25 p.m.
Captain Michael Burgess Vice-President, Great Lakes Region, Canadian Marine Pilots' Association
Thanks.
A couple of things. When you talk about embracing the idea of the captains doing their own pilotage, that does already exist, as you know, with the pilotage certification program. It's really been in place since 2012. Unfortunately, the companies were a little slow on the uptake in embracing it, so there have only been 15 pilotage certificates issued since that time. But they're all fully on board and working towards getting their masters and mates certified to do their own piloting.
As far as a lot of the captains ending up as pilots is concerned, in every industry there's always room for advancement, and that's one of them. On our side, we have started working with industry to make sure that we bring more people into the industry and that it's understood that it's a good vocation to get into. Our main focus right now is making sure we have the people to continue doing that.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON
That's one of the reasons I asked the question. It's obvious—and correct me if I'm wrong—that the direction we're taking here is actually going to help the industry be more competitive internationally with respect to moving trade.
Second is the challenge of human resources the industry is going to be facing, if it's not already facing it, with respect to the different disciplines that are on a vessel—captains, mates, cooks, deckhands, engineers and so on. We're hoping that this legislation will also lend itself positively to ensuring that we have enough people to person the ship so they can sail.
Would you agree this is a step in the right direction to that effect?
12:25 p.m.
Capt Michael Burgess
I would agree, yes, and it's being embraced for sure.
12:25 p.m.
Sonia Simard Director, Legislative and Environmental Affairs, Shipping Federation of Canada
Maybe I could add very quickly a third element to what you just outlined. There are also the optics of the new technologies, and in your case, the Great Lakes and the St. Lawrence, for example, the use of real-time information on water levels on the clear dynamic systems. When we talk about a vision for pilotage, in no way is the discussion on cost-effectiveness, responsiveness to users and uptake of new technology exclusive of safety. They work together. That's our vision.
May 2nd, 2019 / 12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Thank you, everybody, for being here.
One item that popped out to me was a comment by the Chamber of Marine Commerce that they've factored in an important change to “allow Canadian crews that have similar knowledge and experience as…pilots to navigate their own ships in compulsory pilotage zones.” How do you define “similar knowledge and experience”, and where would that apply?
12:25 p.m.
Vice-President, Operations, Chamber of Marine Commerce
Currently, as the discussion has been going, on the Great Lakes and the St. Lawrence Seaway in the Great Lakes pilotage area our masters and senior navigating officers are piloting their own vessels. They have a safety record that's equal to or better than their GLPA licensed counterparts. The program was formalized in 2012, but they've been doing on-the-job self-training and evaluation to develop the piloting skills.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
But it counts on the fact that it's kind of a milk run—albeit that's not really a very appropriate term. They keep doing the same thing back and forth.
12:25 p.m.
Vice-President, Operations, Chamber of Marine Commerce
They're concentrators. They're captive to Canadian waters. They're going up and down. They could be on certain lakes, but there's variability. Forty percent of their voyages are under 24 hours long, so they're in and out of ports, locks, canals, rivers, currents—
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
I'm sorry, my time is short, so I need to spread the questions around a little bit.
Would that work in Atlantic Canada? If you're looking at the ships coming in, my guess is there's going to be a lot more variation, and certainly not the level of experience in navigating into Halifax, Fredericton or anywhere else.
12:25 p.m.
Capt Sean Griffiths
Back to Mr. Burgess' comment, we have the same principles in place now. However, the conditions for a master to meet the qualifications to be certificated for pilotage are essentially in the same spirit as for the licence holder. The exam is almost the same as what a licence holder would be challenged with. The knowledge level he or she would need to pass an exam would be the same as for licence holder, but the trips aren't quite there.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Can you foresee a large number of skippers being able to pilot their vessels into and out of ports in Atlantic Canada?
12:25 p.m.
Capt Sean Griffiths
They do today. I expect that number to continue to grow over the next couple of years as more masters become more familiar with the waters and want to challenge that exam to be exempt from pilotage. There are at least 10 to 14 certificate exams in the Atlantic region every year.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
My concern, and I'll just put this on the record, is that out on the west coast we're dealing with a lot of volume, and it's growing, but we're also dealing with other factors like species at risk, obviously. We rely on local knowledge from a number of different quarters to make sure that things out there are managed in an appropriate way. It's not necessarily even the official management structure, but, rather, it's people who are aware of more than just getting the ship to the dock and back out again. For instance, advice on the design of port facilities has come from pilots, who obviously have had the experience of bringing ever larger ships into those facilities and back out again. I would question whether or not somebody who might visit our port fairly regularly would develop sufficient familiarity to provide that added value. Maybe, Mr. Pelletier, you could respond to that.
12:30 p.m.
Capt Simon Pelletier
That's a very valid point. The basis of having a certificated person, captain or officer, on board a ship is to make sure that this person has the proper local knowledge to safely navigate a ship within a compulsory pilotage zone. That's the basis. Essentially that's what has been going on in the regions. Every time there's a captain certificated, he's been through a thorough process, and the four pilotage authorities are assessing his competence and knowledge. That's fundamental for the system. As far as I know, Bill C-97 says the same thing.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
I think that it would be very important, especially out on the west coast, because of all of the other issues and tensions, to be very transparent in that. For anybody who's not a Canadian pilot used to the waters, if they're bringing a ship in from the Philippines or wherever, if they are to be allowed to pilot their vessel through that zone, it has to be bullet-proof.
12:30 p.m.
Capt Simon Pelletier
I think it's important in every region of Canada, not only one, but every region. I also believe that you will have some pilots from the west coast here next Tuesday who would be happy to respond to your questions about that region.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
We've had comments about increasing the level of competition. Right now you sort of have two layers of monopoly, particularly when we're dealing with the pilotage authorities themselves. Then, of course, there's the provision of contracted services. Help me get my head around how you would achieve more competition and, obviously, through competition, I suppose more price or cost management with some of the changes that are coming up.
Does anybody want to take that one on?
Go ahead.
12:30 p.m.
President, Shipping Federation of Canada
First of all, any foreign ship coming into Canada has to take a Canadian pilot. Your concern there is.... I don't think you have to worry about that.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
12:30 p.m.
President, Shipping Federation of Canada
I don't think this bill introduces any competition into the pilotage regime in Canada. I think Simon would agree with me there.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
It's still missing that aspect of it. What, then, is the net benefit in terms of cost? That seems to be what's driving the industry side quite a bit. Is there any net benefit in terms of cost?
12:30 p.m.
President, Chamber of Marine Commerce
This is a failing of the proposed legislation, as we were pointing out. It does not have a flexible labour model where the authorities would be able to choose. The Danes have taken some great leadership over the 10 years in having more options and have successfully introduced...as you say.
We will continue to push, but clearly there is very little change in that regard.
