Evidence of meeting #23 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rates.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Bourque  President and Chief Executive Officer, Railway Association of Canada
Perry Pellerin  Chairman, Saskatchewan Shortline Railway Association
Janet Drysdale  Vice-President, Corporate Development, Canadian National Railway Company
Sean Finn  Executive Vice-President, Corporate Services and Chief Legal Officer, Canadian National Railway Company
James Clements  Vice-President, Strategic Planning and Transportation Services, Canadian Pacific Railway
Robert Taylor  Assistant Vice-President, North America Advocacy, Canadian Pacific Railway

9:25 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Railway Association of Canada

Michael Bourque

On the question of petroleum being moved, I just did a little back-of-the-envelope calculation for what that extra grain crop was. It's 2,000 trains with 100 cars each. An additional 2,000 trains, with 100 cars each, was just to move the additional crop in that record year. A lot of that was being moved to an export position through the Vancouver gateway. There was not a single carload of oil that got moved to the Vancouver gateway, but you can ask the class Is that question when it comes up. We did not see a huge conflict in that respect.

9:25 a.m.

Chairman, Saskatchewan Shortline Railway Association

Perry Pellerin

But we must not forget, up to that point of today, that last week we had no oil, we had no weather, we had nothing, and there were terminals on the south shore out of grain for more than 60 hours.

That's not acceptable. We have to do something, and what that reflects is that, if you don't unload them, they're not empty, they don't get back to the country, and it reflects on short-lines, producers, farmers, and even in this case the other class I carrier. It's not his fault. He didn't do anything wrong. He did everything he was supposed to. We're all responsible here for this chain, and we have to react more quickly than we've ever reacted in the past. To me, that is the key to this whole thing. We're too slow to decide when we're in a big mess. That's what we have to do.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you all very much for the information. We'd appreciate any further comments you might have that you want to send to the committee. You know what we're struggling with, to come up with recommendations that will seriously deal with this issue. If you have any subsequent thoughts following today's meeting, please feel more than welcome to send them to the clerk for distribution to the committee members.

Thank you very much. We will change panels now.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Would you like to introduce yourselves, starting with the Canadian National Railway and then the Canadian Pacific Railway?

9:30 a.m.

Janet Drysdale Vice-President, Corporate Development, Canadian National Railway Company

Good morning. My name is Janet Drysdale. I'm vice-president of corporate development for CN Rail.

9:30 a.m.

Sean Finn Executive Vice-President, Corporate Services and Chief Legal Officer, Canadian National Railway Company

Good morning, Madam Chair. My name is Sean Finn. I am executive vice-president, corporate services, at CN.

9:30 a.m.

James Clements Vice-President, Strategic Planning and Transportation Services, Canadian Pacific Railway

Good morning, Madam Chair. I'm James Clements, vice-president, strategic planning and transportation services.

9:30 a.m.

Robert Taylor Assistant Vice-President, North America Advocacy, Canadian Pacific Railway

Good morning. My name is Robert Taylor. I'm responsible for government affairs for CP.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you. It's nice to see you all back here again.

I will turn it over to Canadian National to do a deputation.

9:30 a.m.

Executive Vice-President, Corporate Services and Chief Legal Officer, Canadian National Railway Company

Sean Finn

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Hello everyone. My name is Sean Finn and I'm the executive vice-president of CN. I'm joined by my colleague, Janet Drysdale. We appreciate the opportunity to meet with the committee to share CN's views on Bill C-30, the Fair Rail For Grain Farmers Act.

I would like to take this opportunity to confirm that CN is ready to transport grain this fall. Our locomotives, train crews and railcars are ready to serve our clients and Canadian farmers.

Regarding Mr. Pellerin's comment on the grain shortage on the south side of Vancouver last week, the explanation is very simple. The grain was not transported because it was not available last week for delivery to a market. So there is no danger with regard to transportation in Vancouver or issue with supplying grain to the network.

We are pleased that the committee has decided to review the provisions of Bill C-30. We recognize that, as a result of the serious backlog of grain in the 2013-14 crop year, the government of the time felt it had to take some action. However, the reality is that the grain would have moved at the same pace without this bill. The situation in 2013-14 was a result of the largest crop on record, combined with one of the longest and most severe winters in recent Canadian history.

To operate safely, railways must reduce train length in severe cold weather, which significantly impacts our capacity. We assured the government of the day that as soon as extreme winter conditions broke, which they did ultimately, we'd quickly ramp up to meet the capacity of the export terminals. The government felt compelled to bring in the quotas, but wisely, they were set at realistic levels based on what we and others recognized was the capacity of the supply chain. While there were a few individual weeks when we missed the quotas, overall we exceeded them.

CN believes the quotas are unnecessary and fail to recognize the importance and interconnectedness of the grain supply chain. If any part of the chain—ports, export terminals, vessels, or country elevators—is not operating at peak efficiency, the whole system suffers. We are only as strong as our weakest link.

Regulation that singles out only one component of the supply chain is, in our view, unnecessary and ineffective. I would also suggest that the quotas send the wrong signal to other Canadian shippers, by definition implying that their traffic does not have the same priority. This is not the message we want to convey to any of our customers, particularly other bulk exporters that are also competing in the global marketplace, as well as those shippers who choose to use Canadian ports and railways when they have other options.

9:30 a.m.

Vice-President, Corporate Development, Canadian National Railway Company

Janet Drysdale

While quotas are an ineffective means to increase capacity, extended interswitching is far more problematic, undermining Canada's export agenda and exacerbating the looming issue with respect to railcar capacity for grain.

For those of you who travel by air to Ottawa, I imagine that given the option, you prefer a direct flight. Having to connect reduces your efficiency in trying to get from point A to point B. Like a connecting flight, extended interswitching introduces delays, sometimes significant, and uses up precious railcar capacity, reducing the overall throughput of the supply chain.

For every day that extended interswitching adds to the entire grain fleet, 785 additional railcars are required to move the same amount of grain. That translates into an additional supply chain expense of more than $100 million, directly impacting the competitiveness of Canada's grain exports.

Extended interswitching, over time, will also stifle investment. In April, fire destroyed a bridge on CN's rail network in Mayerthorpe, Alberta. Forty per cent of carloads originating or terminating west of that bridge fall within extended interswitching. If the only compensation CN received were the regulated interswitching rate for that traffic, we would not have been able to justify the $10 million required to rebuild the bridge. The same fundamental concern applies to all kinds of capital requirements across Canadian rail networks. When regulations discourage investment, we are putting the sustainability of Canada's supply chains at risk.

Another very serious concern with extended interswitching, which also discourages investment, is the opening up of Canadian traffic to U.S. railways. Extended interswitching enables U.S. rails to draw Canadian traffic onto their network while paying extremely low regulated rates to the Canadian railway performing the interswitching, thereby improving the density of the U.S. rail network and improving the U.S. railway's reinvestment capabilities.

As Canadian traffic is diverted to the U.S., the investment to maintain a safe and fluid domestic railway will by definition need to be spread over a smaller traffic base. Two things are likely to result from that: one, the need to charge higher rates on the remaining Canadian traffic; and two, the likelihood that some reinvestment simply does not take place, ultimately reducing Canada's competitiveness, particularly with respect to export supply chains.

In the U.S., switching rates are commercially negotiated, and there is no forced access provision equivalent to Canadian interswitching. The poaching of Canadian traffic by U.S. railroads without reciprocity will negatively impact reinvestment in our nation's transportation system. Rest assured, we are not suggesting that Canadian rails are not prepared to deliver or receive traffic from U.S. rail carriers. We are simply saying that the terms to do so should be based on commercial negotiations, thereby ensuring a level playing field in how Canadian and U.S. rails interact on both sides of the border.

The notion that extended interswitching is an important customer lever in price and service negotiations overlooks how much regulation and competition already exist. With respect to price for grain shipments, railways are already regulated under the maximum revenue entitlement. With respect to service, it is important to remember that all grain starts in a truck. Eighty per cent of western elevator capacity is either dual-served by rail, within the 30-kilometre interswitching regulation, or within 50 truck miles of CN or CP. Those existing competitive options operate far more efficiently than extended interswitching.

Shippers also already have the benefit of other regulatory measures that address price and service issues, including final offer arbitration, common carrier obligations, level of service complaints, and service level arbitration provisions. It is also very important to note that close to 75% of CN's grain is now moving under commercial terms that include reciprocal penalties for car supply and car usage.

We are already dealing with the unintended consequences of regulation in the country's Vancouver trade corridor, where significant investments cannot be justified by rail companies because the regulated returns are simply insufficient.

Canada needs a transportation policy that supports our export-oriented economy with innovation and investment. Market-driven forces have enabled Canada to create a world-class rail network, in which Canadian shippers benefit from rates that are among the lowest in the world. We would like to keep it that way. If we collectively hope to do so, Bill C-30 must be allowed to sunset.

Thank you.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much.

Mr. Clements, go ahead.

9:35 a.m.

Vice-President, Strategic Planning and Transportation Services, Canadian Pacific Railway

James Clements

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning. We thank the committee for the opportunity to discuss the consequences of Bill C-30 for the Canadian grain supply chain. The majority of our comments this morning will focus on the provisions of the act that grant authority to the Canadian Transportation Agency to extend the interswitching limits in the prairie provinces from 30 kilometres to 160 kilometres.

As background, grain is CP's largest line of business. Grain accounted for approximately one-quarter of CP's total revenue ton-miles in each of the last three years. CP's grain movements are roughly two-thirds originated in Canada and one-third from U.S. locations. Both regions supply agricultural products to domestic and international markets. CP serves directly or indirectly multiple export terminals for shipments overseas with major outlets on the west and east coasts, the U.S., and Mexico. The majority of CP's grain traffic is regulated, with two-thirds of our 2015 grain revenue relating to that traffic.

The grain supply chain starts at the farm gate. Every tonne of grain is loaded on a truck, and as a result, producers have the freedom of choice as they determine both the destination and the timing of their deliveries.

There's a high degree of coordination required within the grain supply chain, particularly with respect to grain moving to marine ports for export. The capacity of that system is determined by the capabilities and operating practices of the entire supply chain, and not just rail.

I'll note that it's important to understand the context that led to the introduction of Bill C-30 by the previous government. In the 2013-14 crop year, CP moved a record amount of grain. The challenge that the system faced was driven by the fact that the capacity of the system did not match the demands created by an extraordinary grain harvest. The crop that year was 23.5-million metric tonnes larger than a typical year's grain crop. That's the equivalent of an extra 13 Rogers stadiums full of grain that hit the supply chain at once, or put another way, more than double Canada's typical export movement of potash.

The system's ability to respond to the challenge in moving the large grain crop was compounded by the winter of 2013-14, which was extremely harsh. The weather pattern set in for a lengthy period of time across the entire North American supply chain. As Mr. Emerson's report noted:

In spite of the challenges confronted by the grain-handling-and-transportation system, it still managed to move record volumes of grain under some very difficult conditions.

Temporary, extraordinary demands like the ones in 2013 pose a significant challenge. No efficient supply chain in the world is designed to handle extraordinary, atypical volumes under abnormally challenging operating conditions. A system built to handle these outliers would be under-utilized and/or under-compensated at all other times.

Although we are used to and prepared for dealing with challenging winter conditions in Canada, extremely cold temperatures require the railway to run shorter trains at slower speeds in order to operate safely. This reduces overall system capacity. The unusual, cold temperatures also caused the seaway, an important grain outlet, to be closed for a month longer than normal. Once the weather improved, the supply chain moved record volumes of grain. This performance was already in place before the legislation was passed, and it would have happened in the absence of any legislative intervention by Parliament.

Fundamentally, Bill C-30 was based on a flawed premise, namely, that Canadian railways had the ability to move an extraordinary volume of grain but were choosing not to. This premise simply defies logic because moving grain, our largest line of business, is how CP makes money.

The stated goal of the Fair Rail for Grain Farmers Act was, and I quote from a press release of March 26, “to help the entire grain transportation system reach the goal of getting product to market quickly and more efficiently following a record crop year for...farmers.” It was never clear how the legislation would actually achieve that goal.

At the time we cautioned that Bill C-30 would have a negative impact on Canada's competitiveness, threaten job growth and investment, and hinder the grain supply chain. The data over the past two years demonstrates that Bill C-30 has not resulted in the movement of any more grain. Regrettably, this legislation is harming capacity, efficiency, and competitiveness of the Canadian supply chain to the detriment of all shippers and the performance of the Canadian economy.

The extension of interswitching limits from 30 kilometres to 160 kilometres for all commodities in the prairie provinces is our major concern. The change has harmed the supply chain in three distinct ways: overall rail system capacity has been reduced as a result of the added complexity and variation; U.S. railroads have been given an unfair competitive advantage, which is drawing traffic away from Canadian railroads; and the regulated rate that Canadian railways can charge for interswitching is non-compensatory, so we lose money for every car that we interswitch, which undercuts investment in capacity-building infrastructure that could help move grain at a greater velocity in the future.

Overall system capacity declines because the extended interswitching limits reduce our operating efficiency. Interswitching creates additional work events to process cars to and from interchange locations.

The last thing a railway needs to do is to try to get air through railcars at -35° C. The extra work increases time and complexity in the supply chain. These inefficiencies reduce capacity and velocity for all players.

Bill C-30 also puts the Canadian railways at a competitive disadvantage to the U.S. railways because there is no reciprocal interswitching provision in American law. The expanded interswitching limit in Canada gives U.S. railroads significant reach into Canada, and has caused Canadian traffic to be interswitched to U.S. railroads. The lack of reciprocity in the U.S. prevents Canadian railways from doing the same in the U.S. For the 16 months from May 2015 to August 2016, BNSF obtained 3,945 carloads from CP through the application of extended interswitching regulations. Currently, the volume of this traffic is relatively low and involves six customers, but it is growing rapidly. Almost one-third of the BNSF interchange traffic related to non-grain commodities.

Perversely, an unintended but real consequence of extended interswitching is that 20% of the volumes are inbound to Canada, meaning that Canada is subsidizing U.S. exports into Canada, and these volumes included grain. All traffic interswitched with the BNSF runs the majority of its movement in the U.S., increasing density and therefore efficiency of the U.S. system, allowing U.S. carriers to earn profits and pay taxes to a foreign government, and providing jobs to U.S. workers.

The lack of regulatory harmony in the rail industry is inconsistent with the access reciprocity that exists in other transport sectors. Air transport access for the Canadian and American air carriers is governed by bilateral air agreements negotiated on the basis of reciprocity. Similarly, access regulations governing coastal and inland marine services in Canada and the U.S. are reciprocal. The lack of reciprocity for the rail industry harms Canada's economy, and the expanded interswitching reach is pulling traffic south of the border. We ask why the Government of Canada's preferred policy position is to see rail traffic moved to American railways for shipment?

The current government has made a promise to Canadians to make policy based on evidence, and we applaud them for that commitment, but Bill C-30 is a perfect example of a policy based on politics, emotion, and anecdote, without any reference to data and evidence. Now, with the benefit of two years of data generated after Bill C-30 became law, we submit that the evidence demonstrates that the extended interswitching limits cause far more harm than good, both for the grain shippers the act purports to help and the broader Canadian economy.

Every legislative review of extended interswitching limits has reached the same conclusion. The panel conducting the first review of the CTA in 2000-01 rejected calls for extending interswitching limits and recommended that the 30-kilometre limit be retained. The panel said at the time, “expanding the interswitching limits would worsen the market-distorting aspects of the interswitching rate regime and would be a step backward.”

The more recent review, headed by Mr. Emerson, recommended that the extended interswitching limit be allowed to sunset. The negative consequences for infrastructure investment, system capacity, and supply chain efficiency are strong grounds for the sunsetting of Bill C-30.

We urge the committee to listen to the evidence-based advice and analysis in the Emerson report and past reviews of extending interswitching, and allow the sunsetting of the Bill C-30 provisions. We have the most efficient rail system in the world. Layering on further regulation of the grain supply chain is not the answer.

What will help move Canadian grain to international markets? Market-based capacity-building infrastructure investments and innovation that drive operating efficiency improvements across the Canadian grain export supply chain. Here we have good news to share. Over the past two years, country grain elevator and port capacities have been increased. CP has invested record amounts in new and expanded infrastructure that will improve the rail system's ability to move higher volumes of grain more efficiently. CP has also developed new programs that improve asset management and availability for our grain customers and provide them better predictability to what they can sell to international markets. These are the features of a rail system that will actually improve the performance of the Canadian grain supply chain, and this should be our collective focus going forward.

Thank you.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you all very much. That is quite valuable information you have provided.

We will start our questioning.

Ms. Watts.

September 27th, 2016 / 9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Dianne Lynn Watts Conservative South Surrey—White Rock, BC

Thank you very much. You mentioned that the measures in place right now give U.S. carriers an unfair advantage.

You said BNSF was growing rapidly. Is there a U.S. carrier other than BNSF?

9:45 a.m.

Vice-President, Strategic Planning and Transportation Services, Canadian Pacific Railway

James Clements

No. They are the main carrier.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Dianne Lynn Watts Conservative South Surrey—White Rock, BC

If Bill C-30 was reversed, that would take BNSF out of the picture or significantly decrease its competitiveness.

9:45 a.m.

Vice-President, Corporate Development, Canadian National Railway Company

Janet Drysdale

Shippers would still have the option to use BNSF should they want to get their grain to U.S.-destined locations—

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Dianne Lynn Watts Conservative South Surrey—White Rock, BC

Right, but typically that—

9:45 a.m.

Vice-President, Corporate Development, Canadian National Railway Company

Janet Drysdale

But the rates to do so would be at a commercial rate as opposed to a regulated rate.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Dianne Lynn Watts Conservative South Surrey—White Rock, BC

Right.

Then typically, by logic, that would shift back to CN and CP, the major carriers for Canada. Correct?

9:45 a.m.

Vice-President, Strategic Planning and Transportation Services, Canadian Pacific Railway

James Clements

It would result in commercial negotiation.

As we've said, the issue with the regulated rate is that it has some market-distorting effects, and it would allow the normal commercial pricing processes to be re-established. Some of these commodities still may result in movement on the BN, but they would be starting with CN or CP.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

Dianne Lynn Watts Conservative South Surrey—White Rock, BC

Okay, so that's taking out the competition.

My second piece was that there was no mention of short-line rail. How does that work in terms of the whole system? You mentioned truck, you mentioned...but not short-line rail.

9:50 a.m.

Vice-President, Corporate Development, Canadian National Railway Company

Janet Drysdale

Short-line rail is a very important partner for us in the supply chain. They typically have smaller branch lines that feed into the larger CN and CP networks. Certainly coordination, good information sharing, is an important part of how we deal with the short-line network.

However, with respect to Bill C-30, CN doesn't have a particular view with respect to the short-line perspective in that regard.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

Dianne Lynn Watts Conservative South Surrey—White Rock, BC

Right, okay.