Evidence of meeting #31 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was project.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Executive Director, Atkinson Foundation
In addition to training, we would think about benefits like first source hiring, procurement from small and mid-size organizations and enterprises, and affordable housing offsets as part of a development process, along with other forms of neighbourhood amenities. As well, I would reinforce your point on environmental remediation.
I would agree with Rosemarie Powell that the benefits are going to vary from community to community and from project to project. They're going to lend themselves to different benefits, depending on the context and the needs of the local communities that you're targeting, and that needs to be done in partnership.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Mr. McBain, you mentioned in your comments that getting best value out of a project sometimes includes non-monetized items that you can't attach a dollar figure to. Can you give us some examples of things that you've seen come up in some of your projects?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Lands Company
Yes. One of our core approaches is commemoration of heritage uses of the properties that we work in. One of the things that we want to do is recognize those historic uses. We have so far invested funds in 11 legacy commemoration projects that recognize first nations or military uses of the properties and commemorate them.
That's usually done in conjunction with green space. It's seen as an amenity by the residents in the community. It builds into the park network that is already established.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Do you think that, in addition to having this framework established in legislation, we could perhaps be helpful to communities by giving them a list, a register of the things that they could think about when government comes to them and says, “Look, we want to do this. What would work for you?”
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Lands Company
Certainly, and I agree with the other witnesses that it really would be project specific, that there are things that would suit some projects more than others, and some that might be unique to a special project.
The area of sustainability is an interesting one in terms of toxic site cleanup. Sometimes that's one of the issues that we deal with, but it's also in terms of sustainable practice, and adaptive use of buildings on site rather than just knocking things down. Can we be sustainable in terms of reusing that material?
Those are the hard things, but there's also all the benefits in terms of employment and skills development as well.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
We certainly can easily get a grasp of things that a community would like right there at home, but the other aspect, of course, is the federal government's agenda, the macro things that it wants to proceed with.
Ms. Powell and Ms. Murphy, I'll go to you two specifically. How do you see the balance between those two? Should we always default to what the community wants first, or have you had experience where the big picture agenda can be moved forward in an agreeable way?
Executive Director, Toronto Community Benefits Network
I think so. It's a balance, and the community recognizes that. There are some things that the community might ask for that might end up being too expensive and will delay the project, but it's in communication with the community that those determinations can be made.
There are projects that we might want to do that fit in. For example, there is the 150-year celebration that the government is planning for next year.
My colleague here is from the Jane and Finch community, and they're working with Metrolinx to look at how they might be able to put up a recreational centre right at the corner of Finch and York Gate where the maintenance and storage facility will be. They're looking at how they might be able to tap into that, that federal campaign around Canada 150.
It's communication, informing the residents about what is available. They could look at a suite or a range of things, as you have suggested, that they might also be interested in, and we come together in that, but it's through communication in having the community at the table in those discussions that's important.
NDP
Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I thank all of the witnesses for being with us this morning. It is a pleasure to have you here.
As for Bill C-227, of course it is difficult to be against motherhood. It would be like saying that I'm against apple pie.
That said, however, the bill seems very vague to me. I was, in fact, very happy to hear Ms. Murphy say earlier that new paragraph 20.1(2), the amendment proposed to the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act, should have more teeth. The minister should be using “must” rather than “may” when it comes to requiring local benefits.
I have not heard the other witnesses on this topic. I'm going to give them a chance to express their thoughts. If they do not agree with this amendment, I would like to know what criteria the minister could use to require such benefits or not.
In the same vein, I would go a bit further with you, Ms. Murphy. I will give you the floor first. In your opinion, should the bill also include penalties if these requirements are not respected?
Executive Director, Atkinson Foundation
I think it's when you get into the authorization that you begin to look at early setting of targets as part of assessing a project. You look at putting accountability measures in place and, yes, I think that you do look at monitoring and compliance, and for those who fail to comply, they should be subject to some form of penalty, just as they would be for other parts of non-delivery on contracts.
Earlier it was mentioned that we add layers of cost or bureaucracy. This is part and parcel of monitoring a project's delivery, and that's done on any project that the federal government does to look to derive value for money.
I think that, from our understanding of how these are applied in other jurisdictions, you can assess and monitor. You have to know what you're assessing and monitoring, and if people aren't delivering, sure there should be penalties.
Executive Director, Toronto Community Benefits Network
I'm in full agreement.
Entrepreneurs are not going to provide benefits to communities out of the goodness of their hearts.
For example, look at the construction industry. There have been jobs in infrastructure all across Canada for many years. When we look at the percentage of diversity that is in the construction industry, we see that it's very low. We're looking at 2% or 3% or sometimes 9% in different trades that are actually diversified. The composition of women in the trades is 3%. When we're talking about community benefits, it's important to put targets in there because there will be a requirement to actually do this. When there's a requirement, then and only then are we able to put the processes in place to make that move.
When we worked with Metrolinx, we wanted targets. We knew that the construction industry needed to get supports in line, and the workforce development system was not strong enough to be able to do that. We worked to pull together a process for how we can get people from the disadvantaged communities into the trades. It's a system that we plan to build up over the next five years. Without that framework and without those targets, we'll never be able to get to the level of diversification that we would like to see, and communities will not get access to these jobs.
NDP
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Lands Company
Yes, thank you.
First of all, I think it's key that a matrix to evaluate the contracts, the bids from the contractors, would need to take this aspect into account. As the government or the proponent was reviewing the bids, they would see this and they would be awarding points for contractors that were clear or progressive in terms of the benefits they identified.
Second, with regard to the question on your aspect about a penalty, as other witnesses have identified, the government already has mechanisms, and this could be included as part of the criteria. For example, there are holdbacks on contracts. Failure to succeed in or failure to verify or execute the promises for this could be reflected in the holdback portion of the contract and in the evaluation of the bidder for future work.
NDP
Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC
Very quickly, I would like to raise another topic. I would ask each of you to provide a brief answer.
Clause 1 of the bill reads as follows:
20.1 (1) For the purpose of this section, community benefit means a social or economic benefit [...]
In 2016, should each of the proposed projects not include the environment as a transversal value?
We could follow the same order, beginning with Ms. Murphy.
Executive Director, Toronto Community Benefits Network
Yes, absolutely. Infrastructure jobs in particular have the most opportunity to become green. You can create green jobs from that, and historic preservation, and the transformation of the landscape. It's an excellent opportunity to meet your environmental goals as a government.
Liberal
Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS
Thank you very much to our witnesses.
First, Mr. McBain, you mentioned that your engagement is a hallmark of your organization's process. I'm wondering if you could shed any light on whether you think a robust engagement process that reflects communities' concerns could actually speed up either the approval or the completion of a project.
